The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Mab and Lara
Mira:
--- Quote ---Mab is not expected to tell Harry all her motivations especially not when Anduriel is in earshot but her motives are hardly a secret. Harry had all the information to do what he had to do. The rest is operational security. Just like Harry could not tell all to everyone.
--- End quote ---
She still lied, and Harry and Molly called her and Marcone on it. You are talking motives, but that doesn't change the facts.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 23, 2021, 02:15:28 PM ---She still lied, and Harry and Molly called her and Marcone on it. You are talking motives, but that doesn't change the facts.
--- End quote ---
Harry wanted her to know he knew but they came for Marcone. Marcone and Mab needed to know that. It also helped with protecting grey, binder and the rest and making Marcone accept the weregeld.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Arjan on January 23, 2021, 02:53:04 PM ---Harry wanted her to know he knew but they came for Marcone. Marcone and Mab needed to know that. It also helped with protecting grey, binder and the rest and making Marcone accept the weregeld.
--- End quote ---
That too, but the fact remains, Mab lied.
CrusherJen:
The way I see it, Mab didn't lie, so much as she told a partial truth. There were several goals to the mission:
* To repay a debt owed, balancing the loan of a Fallen Angel with the loan of a Winter Knight
* To assist Nicodemus in the retrieval of an object from Hades
* To gain revenge against Nicodemus after he openly violated Mab's Accords
Mab was honest about the first and second points, but withheld the third. At most it's a lie of omission, but she never actually voiced an untruth, so she never actively lied. And while I don't have the books handy, I'm fairly sure we're warned that while those of Fairy can't lie outright (without assistance), they are verbally tricksy and can fail to disclose all the relevant details unless compelled by a carefully-worded bargain. So Mab's omission isn't unusual, or against her Nature enough to (IMHO) be considered a lie.
Nicodemus was arrogant in his assumption that he'd planned out everything perfectly. If he'd thought to make a more complete bargain with Mab, closing any loopholes that could lead to Harry's betrayal, he might have succeeded. But Nicodemus got exactly what he asked for... up to the point where Nicodemus double-crossed Harry, breaking the deal and reaping the consequences.
Since up to that point, Mab did hold up her end, I don't see a lie. Mab was just better at predicting behavior and planning for all eventual outcomes than Nic was.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: CrusherJen on January 25, 2021, 08:42:25 AM ---The way I see it, Mab didn't lie, so much as she told a partial truth. There were several goals to the mission:
* To repay a debt owed, balancing the loan of a Fallen Angel with the loan of a Winter Knight
* To assist Nicodemus in the retrieval of an object from Hades
* To gain revenge against Nicodemus after he openly violated Mab's Accords
Mab was honest about the first and second points, but withheld the third. At most it's a lie of omission, but she never actually voiced an untruth, so she never actively lied. And while I don't have the books handy, I'm fairly sure we're warned that while those of Fairy can't lie outright (without assistance), they are verbally tricksy and can fail to disclose all the relevant details unless compelled by a carefully-worded bargain. So Mab's omission isn't unusual, or against her Nature enough to (IMHO) be considered a lie.
--- End quote ---
She explained more about what she wanted in the elevator. We can assume Anduriel was listening though she might have shielded the conversation.
She did not lie to Harry but really should she have revealed all her plans? nobody can expect that.
--- Quote ---Nicodemus was arrogant in his assumption that he'd planned out everything perfectly. If he'd thought to make a more complete bargain with Mab, closing any loopholes that could lead to Harry's betrayal,
--- End quote ---
There was no loophole that lead to Harry's betrayal. The big thing is that Harry could not betray Nicodemus because that would give problems with both Mab and the knights of the cross. That is why Harry did not punch first.
He also had to give Nicodemus the grail. If he had not lied he would have gotten what he wanted.
--- Quote ---he might have succeeded. But Nicodemus got exactly what he asked for... up to the point where Nicodemus double-crossed Harry, breaking the deal and reaping the consequences.
--- End quote ---
There was one big loophole Nicodemus could not close. He was incapable of not betraying Harry. He had to do it and he had to do it when he thought Mab would see the least, in Hades realm.
Just like Small favor Nicodemus would have won if he had not betrayed Harry.
--- Quote ---Since up to that point, Mab did hold up her end, I don't see a lie. Mab was just better at predicting behavior and planning for all eventual outcomes than Nic was.
--- End quote ---
Predicting Nicodemus betrayal was not that difficult. Harry and Vadderung did it as well. Setting up everything so Nicodemus could only succeed if he did not betray anyone was smart.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version