Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]

[Arjan]

That is an assumption, or they might see an avenging angel, which would also make them faint.

Or they are evil themselves.

But Harry didn't kill Rudolph, in the emotion of the moment, yes, he wanted to and tried.  However the Sword of Faith by giving him a good burn sobered him up from his emotion.  In that moment he then chose not to do it, and felt shame that he had tried to do it. 

At the end he did not do it even if he needed some help. The choice is important in combination with the consequences and in the dresdenverse the consequences are all important.

While I agree that choices can change a person, I don't think it is all that simple.  For starters is there a WOJ saying that MM is going to be about evil Harry?

I think so. It is the kind of Harry that kills other Harries to get an alibi. That is pretty evil.

  We've already been down that Denarian road with Lasciel, he didn't become evil as a result, he did have good people around him that made him realize what was happening, Butters and Murphy.. But if Harry had really gone postal what they told him wouldn't have done any good.  That's why the emphasis on his father and that Harry had inherited Malcolm's good heart.  Harry will never go totally dark because of that.

The story wouldn’t be interesting if there was no danger and mirror Harry has no plot armor. Harry could have gone bad.

Yes, and you also have to look at motive for the choice in the first place.  Harry didn't want the job as Winter Knight, he was forced to make the best of several very bad choices.  It is also strange how the White Council is so quick to condemn Harry,

We are sitting inside Harry’s head, they are not. Harry tries to do his duty as a knight but for Eb that duty is just a trap. Their whole world view is build to suspect someone like Harry is now.

when as a rule Harry thinks very highly of the White Council, in spite of everything.Except Harry has never wanted to be the "Evil Wizard of the West."   

So he is not. He is going to use his position to help people and he is going to make a difference.

Spoken by someone who is no longer human. 

That does not mean she is wrong. The kind of person Harry wants to be is just different from Lea.

We know that in that aspect Harry is very human and feels lots of shame when he doesn't live up to what he feels he should be.

Which should drive him to make better choices.

[Mira]

That does not mean she is wrong. The kind of person Harry wants to be is just different from Lea.
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Which is why Harry will never fully go down that road, because he doesn't want to.. There you have it, free will, a choice.

Or they are evil themselves.

In the case of Denton, yes, he was evil and when he saw Harry in the soul gaze he begged for mercy.  In the case of Susan, it is hard to say, maybe just the whole idea of a soul gaze freaked her out.  Mrs Beckett was freaked out, neither was Vincent's wife freaked, in fact she was reassured by it.   

At the end he did not do it even if he needed some help. The choice is important in combination with the consequences and in the dresdenverse the consequences are all important.

Yes, they are, it wasn't without consequences, Harry kept mentioning the burn.  The burn was a reminder of what he almost did and what it would do to him.  He came out a better man for it, not a worse one.

I think so. It is the kind of Harry that kills other Harries to get an alibi. That is pretty evil.

An alibi for what?  The other Harry isn't going to be evil just because.  If you will remember in the Trek story, the other Kirk wasn't considered evil, he was a product of his world.

The story wouldn’t be interesting if there was no danger and mirror Harry has no plot armor. Harry could have gone bad.

Or way too predictable, every poster with few exceptions goes on and on about how fun to see a dark Harry.. So if we all know how the story is going to go how interesting is that?  As far as going bad goes, Harry has been on a knife's edge from Storm Front on, it's Star Wars and the Force all over again..

Which should drive him to make better choices.

And like all of us, Harry does the best he can depending on the circumstances.  Can he make better ones? Yes.  Does he make mistakes sometimes?  Of course he does.. As do we all, the difficult part is learning the right lesson from our choices.

[Arjan]

From what I remember the other Harry kidnapped Harry because he needed a body that was unmistakably Harry to make the people trying to get him think Harry was dead. That is evil. These two Harries had the same origins before grave peril so both Harries had the potential for good and evil.

Harry going evil is not that interesting for a main character but the danger of it can add tension to the story

[Dina]

That is my point, MM Harry is just too evil. It is difficult (for me) to imagine that our Harry could end being that unless he has external influences, but of course, we will see what JB has in mind.

[TheCuriousFan]

Making a deal with Bianca was probably the start, Mavra might not have been a good influence either. From there desperation probably did a wonderful job of wearing down whatever morals were left.

[Arjan]

That is my point, MM Harry is just too evil. It is difficult (for me) to imagine that our Harry could end being that unless he has external influences, but of course, we will see what JB has in mind.

Under normal circumstances yes but in the Dresden verse those mechanisms are there. Decisions involving magic are so much more significant. They can create what the council is afraid for, secret warlock Harry. So afraid that they overreact which only hastens the process.

Harry is not immune for the process that creates warlocks.


And Lasciel is still a possibility. Tempting and even more dangerous if his friends desert him. Relying on necromancy is probably also not good for you.

Maybe Marcone will show how dangerous Lasciel could have been.

[Mira]

And Lasciel is still a possibility. Tempting and even more dangerous if his friends desert him. Relying on necromancy is probably also not good for you.

This Harry's connection with the coin is gone, if anything is left of the shadow, it is Lash.

[Arjan]

This Harry's connection with the coin is gone, if anything is left of the shadow, it is Lash.

But is mirror Harry’s connection to the coin gone?

[Mira]

But is mirror Harry’s connection to the coin gone?

Maybe not, but that is the alternate Harry, isn't it?

[Arjan]

Maybe not, but that is the alternate Harry, isn't it?

Exactly. The discussion was how mirror Harry could have become so evil and if the seeds for that are still in our Harry.

One of the reason mirror Harry is so evil can be Lasciel.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

But my overall theory about why MM Harry is evil is TBH necromancy.
It's a long time since we've got proper Necro thread, whole kill your doppelganger is implied to by our world Kemmler way to avoid White Council, Mavra is meant to be Darth Harry ally (or ally of Prime Harry against Darth Dresden - there is grammatical possibility), Dracul was teased as part of Stars and Stones.

So my bet in this regard is - that of three apocalypses - Empty Night being Outsider driven, Hell Bells denarian driven, last one is gonna be necro / dark wizards one. And they are the ones that god least attention hiding well in shadows.

I think Mirror!Dresden is Black Council - and we're gonna get big infodump about them thanks to Mirror Mirror that will help Dresden fighting them in next books

Here's the dilemma. If you can't read the future, what good is the exercise of free will? At best you're guessing.  What you can do is to be true to yourself. So Harry is the type of man that couldn't walk away. And if he does then he has abandoned what it is to be him.

Becasue free will is not only about foresight of consequences. It's about choosing what's wrong and what's right. Picking one of options.
I believe that any choice is true to yourself - by which I mean human beings are complicated not simple like angels, and they have various drives. So I do not really believe in this true to myself - what myself - my Shia Islam Sufi superego or my id of predator hedonist? Both are part of me like my hands and arms... If something is not from myself - I'd not be able to choose it really. I could not just take a knife and stab someone randomly, as it's just no there. But multiple other goods and evils are.

That is an assumption, or they might see an avenging angel, which would also make them faint.

but would Bradley then act as he acted?

But Harry didn't kill Rudolph, in the emotion of the moment, yes, he wanted to and tried.  However the Sword of Faith by giving him a good burn sobered him up from his emotion.  In that moment he then chose not to do it, and felt shame that he had tried to do it.

He would feel such shame after killing Rudolph anyway TBH if there was no Butters to stop him.

That is my point, MM Harry is just too evil. It is difficult (for me) to imagine that our Harry could end being that unless he has external influences, but of course, we will see what JB has in mind.

Turn every book in another story - another corrupting influence after another. Another justification for greater good after another.
It was 14 years since Grave Peril. Lot of time to go dark.

[Mira]

but would Bradley then act as he acted?

It happened without warning, he had no clue that such a think as a soul gaze was even possible, plus the atmosphere was tense in the extreme.   So good or evil, what Bradly saw would scared the hell out of him, or at least startled.  If he saw what the cornerhounds saw according to Harry, that is scary.

He would feel such shame after killing Rudolph anyway TBH if there was no Butters to stop him.

Agreed, but if he had killed him that bell cannot be unrung..  Butters and the Sword brought him back to his senses, then he felt shame for losing it like he did.  Just as Eb was upset and ashamed that he lost control when he went after Harry, Harry likewise was upset and ashamed of himself for losing control. 

[Bad Alias]

But why we assume Mirror!Harry is natural Harry, and our Harry splited history by acting against himself?
Or should we assume each decision creates sort of fake universes that are copies of original one - with fake starting decisions or something?

Or do you mean all decisions were against nature - and all Dresdens are fake or smth? But then why not NATURAL decision?

Any decision that isn't against one's nature doesn't create an alternate reality according to Jim. So the "natural" decision would be a decision that isn't against one's nature and wouldn't be an exercise of free will.

So my explanation is that whenever one exercises free will, there are multiple timelines branching off that point. Each timeline is one in which the actor has exercised free will to act against his nature. No timeline exists in which free will was not exercised.

Without exercising choice Harry would have done X in GP.  But he exercised free will in that book and did Y. In MM, Harry exercised free will and did Z. Y was a good path. Z was a good path. There is no universe in which Harry did X. There may be universes in which Harry did something other than X, Y, and Z, but we don't know because we don't have any indication of a third universe.

None of the Harry's are the natural/choiceless Harry, and all are equally real.

all possible Dresdens exists.

In my theory, a limited number of Dresdens exist. As few as two, but maybe a lot. Definitely less than all imaginable Dresdens.

On the male gaze thing, I think that one has to ignore a great many character descriptions to reach a lot of the "male gaze" descriptions of characters that appear in the books. For example, in DB several female characters appear. The only one that gets the male gaze treatment is the one trying to seduce Harry. (And maybe the naked jogger, I don't really remember).

That is my point, MM Harry is just too evil. It is difficult (for me) to imagine that our Harry could end being that unless he has external influences, but of course, we will see what JB has in mind.

Everybody has external influences.

But my overall theory about why MM Harry is evil is TBH necromancy.

IMO, NecroHarry would probably be the coolest evil Harry.

According to the timeline, it's currently 13 years after GP, so it's at least 14 years after GP, but it might also be more depending on time between 12 Months and MM.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Any decision that isn't against one's nature doesn't create an alternate reality according to Jim. So the "natural" decision would be a decision that isn't against one's nature and wouldn't be an exercise of free will.

Is there a WOJ to that? That would be weird to me, considering free will sort of is part of our nature, it's what defines mortals in Dresdenverse.
Using free will as against of own nature in this regard is weird.

Without exercising choice Harry would have done X in GP.  But he exercised free will in that book and did Y. In MM, Harry exercised free will and did Z. Y was a good path. Z was a good path. There is no universe in which Harry did X. There may be universes in which Harry did something other than X, Y, and Z, but we don't know because we don't have any indication of a third universe.

But why do we assume there is not like basic universe where Harry did X?
Also - overall it seems to me Dresden had not done anything against his very character in GP. He was faithful to it - till end. Burn the world to save one soul - that's very much natural Dresden as we know him. I mean if option of acting against oneself has power to split the universes - that still should include - option 0 being preserved.

But then you seems to consider that you "exercise" free will only when you act against yourself - not every time you stand against real choice, which is quite weird definition of "exercise" for me. It's like you using exercise like physical exercise, when one has to struggle to get gains.
I see it more as exercising your power over something - each time you do it, you're using your power even if it's easy for you.

So option that only unnatural Dresden's exist is bit weird to me.
If you have quote I'd like to see it, if not - well I think we should hunt for another AMA or Q&A and ask him long and convoluted questions about nature of free will and multiverse.

On the male gaze thing, I think that one has to ignore a great many character descriptions to reach a lot of the "male gaze" descriptions of characters that appear in the books. For example, in DB several female characters appear. The only one that gets the male gaze treatment is the one trying to seduce Harry. (And maybe the naked jogger, I don't really remember).

Agree. And it was pointed to me, that many characters get too much descriptions over and over, so maybe sexy babes stood bit more - but it's the same with guys and other beings. Descriptive guy Dresden it.

In my theory, a limited number of Dresdens exist. As few as two, but maybe a lot. Definitely less than all imaginable Dresdens.

That I agree. Still this will be massive number - because it's not just his descisions spliting reality but all 7 bln mortals around.
Some of those splits can be identical from Dresden Files perspective as butterfly effect shall never caught to him, but there are probably worlds when Dresden is different not because of own choice split - but because someone put him in situation when entirely different set of choices and actions was possible.

Agreed, but if he had killed him that bell cannot be unrung.. 

Consequences could not. But from perspective of Dresden soul and character however paradoxically it can seem it could be better. It could push him to stronger spiritual jihad for instance, and stronger grasp of control, and overall better morality.

[Mira]

Consequences could not. But from perspective of Dresden soul and character however paradoxically it can seem it could be better. It could push him to stronger spiritual jihad for instance, and stronger grasp of control, and overall better morality.

Yes, it does appear that the implications of what he almost did, has pushed him to a better grasp of control and overall morality.  That is why he feels shame, that is why he keeps referring to the burn on his wrist, what it reminds him of.  That is why he faced up to the members of the Accords like he did to make amends to the people of Chicago.