Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]

[happyelf]

Overall I enjoyed the two books but with a few big caveats

Butters WTF? It’s like Jim owes his own creation money I love butters as a character but making him a mix of Casanova and Luke Skywalker it’s a bit much.

Peace talks especially was a little bit too horny maybe? Added in to the very predictable way that murphy’s story ended and it left a bit of a sour taste.

I am not loving how Dresden is becoming more and more egocentric the lack of trust his complete unwillingness to share info and his absolute conviction he knows best is really beginning to grate, it makes scenes where he gets kicked off the WC Instead of seeming unreasonable more like well what else were they going to do? Plus the Dresden files has one of if not the best supporting cast in the uf genre and I don’t think they were utilised that well in these two books.

But the bit I didn’t like the most was that scene with  Sigrun and Harry where Jim , in my hopefully wrong opinion, kind of berated readers who wouldn’t be happy with murphy’s fate it reminded me a bit too much of LKH for comfort.

[Mira]

I am not loving how Dresden is becoming more and more egocentric the lack of trust his complete unwillingness to share info and his absolute conviction he knows best is really beginning to grate, it makes scenes where he gets kicked off the WC Instead of seeming unreasonable more like well what else were they going to do? Plus the Dresden files has one of if not the best supporting cast in the uf genre and I don’t think they were utilised that well in these two books.

I won't argue with most of your points.  However as far as Harry being egocentric?  Well, the series is written in the first person with the exception of a handful of short stories.  And yes, as a star born and a thing to combat Outsiders, that would put him front and center.  As the Warden of Demonreach, that would give him the best way to put the Titan away, but notice he wasn't confident of that, he asked Alfred first.  Also when the deed was done, he said he was merely batting clean up, others softened her up before him.  Oh Harry does trust, but the circle of whom he can trust is getting quite small.   For a guy who thinks he knows best, he seems very unsure, that is why he depends on the advice of so many people.  Also it is hard to trust when so many are prejudging and ready to go after you.  Trust is a two way street.  I don't think he totally disregards the feelings of others either, but Peace Talks and Battleground weren't exactly the kind of stories that called for the hero to be sensitive. 

[happyelf]

Sorry I don’t think I explained that bit well specifically what I meant that in these particular two books Dresden who was always a bit single minded is now coming off as a bit self absorbed to a kind of worrying degree specific examples Ivy when it’s obvious when he sees her from his inner monologue that he hasn’t been in contact despite there history and despite the fact he has contacted her for help and the fact he hasn’t made any effort to find out why Carlos ended up in a wheel chair that’s just two examples compare that with butters and the alphas coming together to help him with his hand. The self awareness he had on the more recent books about how his behaviour can look to outsiders seems to be gone look we know Dresden is the good guy but outside looking in there is a lot of reason to be suspicious and Dresden was at least self aware enough to realise that at times anyway, just again personal opinion that seemed to be missing in the last two books. Look this was still the Dresden files and more to the point I enjoyed them I just I don’t know thought in certain things they were a bit more clunky?  Like nothing was radically different just certain things were turned up to 11 and not all good.

[Mira]

1] Ivy;  He did try to catch her eye, he didn't seem upset about that.  Self absorbed?  Maybe, but he was in the middle of trying to pull something off that could get him, Murphy, and Lara killed or worse. They were at the Peace Talks, Ivy, a.k.a the Archive is a neutral party, she must not show even the appearance of favoritism.  Just her talking to Harry or acknowledging him could have sparked an incident.  Harry understands that too, if he were self absorbed I think he would have taken it personally, he didn't.
2]  We don't know one way or the other, but he might have, off page.  The only information given was Carlos was injured on his last mission.  Given how his injuries came about, do you think Carlos would want that advertised?  What happened to him was blow to his ego as well as his body.
3]  As far as Harry being aware of how Outsiders see him.  It isn't like it was a voluntary thing, they attack mentally, Harry gives as good as he gets and in the process sees what they see.  Now if because he is a bad ass he thinks this is how they see him, that is a different matter.

I agree though it is pretty clunky.

[happyelf]

1. With ivy my main meaning wasn’t that he hadn’t tried to get hold of her at the party but that he hadn’t been in contact with her in general since perhaps her last in person book appearance other then his call for help I am basing that on A) his surprise at her changed appearance and wondering where Kincaid was who we know has been gone since the end of changes ( due to that short story sorry I can’t remember the name of ) and being about her only friend and knowing what molly went through you think he would have dropped the occasional phone call .b) with Carlos , yes it could have happened off page but again his comments about taking Carlos out for a drink to figure what’s wrong with him implies to me he hasn’t at least in any serious way. C) and if you wanted to be contrary you could even throw in butters threesome as a example since the implication to me , simply on the basis that the usual cheap jokes were lacking was that it was meant to represent a actual poly situation which I know is just developing but it’s implied the boys spend a good bit of time together so you would think that Dresden would suspect something, not necessarily that by any means , was up. But that I admit is a pretty poor example.

Sorry outsider was a poor choice of words on my part I didn’t mean the demon outsiders but people such as white council, Carlos ext people who aren’t able to share Dresden’s POV like we do and can only judge him from what they can see hangs out with vampires , winter knight ext willing to sabatage his friends such as Carlos then refuses to share info.

Again I liked the two books especially battle ground and I am loving the files being back it’s just elements that have always been there I just found that bit more overt and maybe abrasive then in previous books so Dresden has always been single minded but he always been involved with his friends and that wasn’t the impression here came off as cold as above, the tropes elements especially in regards to murphy were so by the book you could see it coming from space that entire scene was like it was a riff on the one from The 100 the one involving lexa and Clarke if any one watches that, the sexism especially in peace talks was way more obvious then it has been previously and seriously how is female bisexuality such a thing but male bisexuality is non existent on the page.

I know this sounds like an awful lot of moaning but I really enjoyed the books but those things for me, the negative bits, really stood out maybe just because it’s been so long since a installment but I did think they were worse then previously.

[Mira]

1. With ivy my main meaning wasn’t that he hadn’t tried to get hold of her at the party but that he hadn’t been in contact with her in general since perhaps her last in person book appearance other then his call for help I am basing that on A) his surprise at her changed appearance and wondering where Kincaid was who we know has been gone since the end of changes ( due to that short story sorry I can’t remember the name of ) and being about her only friend and knowing what molly went through you think he would have dropped the occasional phone call

I think it is a general misconception that because Harry showed empathy for the little girl, who he named Ivy, would be saddled with such a thing as the Archive, that they corresponded often. There is no evidence that they did in the books.  They didn't exchange cards at Christmas or anything like that.  Communication is a two way street, no one asks why Ivy didn't get in touch with Harry? "Hey glad you were only mostly dead and now are alive.. By the way I talked Kincaid out of the head shot, and since my feet can now reach the pedals, I canned him.  Both of you really pissed me off by what you pulled, it hurt."  But she didn't..  That is the problem when there is a six year hiatus between books, stuff falls through the cracks.  Of course Jim wanted the Archive to be at the Peace Talks, but what to do with Ivy and her relationship with Harry and Kincaid.. Micro short.. That explains everything, not even close.

with Carlos , yes it could have happened off page but again his comments about taking Carlos out for a drink to figure what’s wrong with him implies to me he hasn’t at least in any serious way. C) and if you wanted to be contrary you could even throw in butters threesome as a example since the implication to me , simply on the basis that the usual cheap jokes were lacking was that it was meant to represent a actual poly situation which I know is just developing but it’s implied the boys spend a good bit of time together so you would think that Dresden would suspect something, not necessarily that by any means , was up. But that I admit is a pretty poor example.

Were they that close?  Yes, on one level Harry and Carlos were friends, but no evidence they were close.  One never hears Harry mention that he and Carlos got together to share a pint of ale at Mac's place. Some hint maybe of camping trips with him and the other Wardens, but did that continue after Carlos was injured?  And is it something Carlos would be comfortable bringing up in front of the other Wardens? Harry's friendship with Butters is more on that level, it is through Harry tagging along for "game nights" with the Alphas that Butters met his ladies in the first place. 

Sorry outsider was a poor choice of words on my part I didn’t mean the demon outsiders but people such as white council, Carlos ext people who aren’t able to share Dresden’s POV like we do and can only judge him from what they can see hangs out with vampires , winter knight ext willing to sabatage his friends such as Carlos then refuses to share info.

At the same time, Carlos knows or has an idea of what Thomas means to Harry.  He may not know that he is his brother, but he knows that he has pulled Harry's bacon, in fact all of their bacon out of the fire on occasion.  So he shouldn't be shocked that Harry would pull what he did to save Thomas. Yes, Harry didn't talk, but at the same time Carlos merely said, "talk to me.."  What does that mean exactly?  On the general subject of having a vampire as a brother and a mantle that savors rape and mayhem that constantly has to be battled? That would take a whole new book.  Carlos never asked specific questions of a concerned friend.  Trust is a two way street, yes, Harry did keep stuff from Carlos, however it was Carlos who put that tracker ink spot on Harry on the beach before anything went down.  That ink spot says, "you're suspect, we want to know all of your movements.."  Is that an incentive to bare your soul to someone who claims to be your friend, yet does that? I think that is one of the tactics used by police when they want a confession, "talk to me, we are all friends

Again I liked the two books especially battle ground and I am loving the files being back it’s just elements that have always been there I just found that bit more overt and maybe abrasive then in previous books so Dresden has always been single minded but he always been involved with his friends and that wasn’t the impression here came off as cold as above, the tropes elements especially in regards to murphy were so by the book you could see it coming from space that entire scene was like it was a riff on the one from The 100 the one involving lexa and Clarke if any one watches that, the sexism especially in peace talks was way more obvious then it has been previously and seriously how is female bisexuality such a thing but male bisexuality is non existent on the page.

I think that is the problem a lot of us had with the books, I call it the kitchen sink approach. Like a blockbuster movie that sports a star studded cast, but there is only so much dialogue and action to divide between 20 or 30 stars in a three hour movie..  Lots of action, little satisfaction, and a lot of WTF moments..

I know this sounds like an awful lot of moaning but I really enjoyed the books but those things for me, the negative bits, really stood out maybe just because it’s been so long since a installment but I did think they were worse then previously.

No, it isn't a lot of moaning, and I think you will notice, a lot of us did moan for the same reasons you are.

[Dina]

Just to show my support to the idea that Harry is a lousy friend. As I said many times, it's not difficult for Harry to write a few notes to Ivy from time to time. For her, contact must be more difficult, but for him is easy. And the fact that he did not do that makes him selfish. On the same vein, he seems to take the Alphas for granted, so I hope in the next book we will see more interaction with him and something that shows his truly appreciation for them.

[Mira]

Just to show my support to the idea that Harry is a lousy friend. As I said many times, it's not difficult for Harry to write a few notes to Ivy from time to time. For her, contact must be more difficult, but for him is easy. And the fact that he did not do that makes him selfish. On the same vein, he seems to take the Alphas for granted, so I hope in the next book we will see more interaction with him and something that shows his truly appreciation for them.

But we do not know if he did or not, do we?  We know back in Small Favor because he knew if he wrote anything down she'd get his message of support.  He did that.  He was in a semi coma for six months following Changes and during Ghost Story, so he couldn't write at that time.  Then in Cold Days he had to save the eastern half of the US from blowing up and prevent Outsiders from springing everyone from his little jail, and on top of that he was dealing with a Neminfected Winter Lady, oh and at the beginning he had a couple of months of rehab... Then in the time between Cold Days and Skin Game he was held incommunicado on the island with a thing in his head that could kill him. Then in the few months after Skin Game, dealing with a romance and trying to get to know his daughter and become a father.  He had very little interaction with her since Small Favor, so it isn't shocking that he didn't send a note to her.  But then again, he might have, in the role of Archive, Ivy may not have chosen to respond to him.

[Dina]

Yes Mira, I know what you feel about this and you know I think he could still take 5 minutes every couple of weeks to write her a message. Of course, not while he was in a coma, but all the rest of the time. And precisely my problem is that he had little contact with her since SF. I've been complaining about this since for ever. And no, Harry does not explicitly say that he never wrote, but the general tone of his inner monologue hints at that.

[Mira]

Yes Mira, I know what you feel about this and you know I think he could still take 5 minutes every couple of weeks to write her a message. Of course, not while he was in a coma, but all the rest of the time. And precisely my problem is that he had little contact with her since SF. I've been complaining about this since for ever. And no, Harry does not explicitly say that he never wrote, but the general tone of his inner monologue hints at that.

Actually he wrote her in Changes asked for help with little Maggie.  She couldn't help him, against the rules but hinted who he might ask for help.

[Dina]

You are right, I forgot about that. Still, not a social message.

[Mira]

You are right, I forgot about that. Still, not a social message.

I don't think he ever sent her a social message except that one of support when the Denarians had her back in Small Favor.  Then you will remember Luccio told him to back off because he wasn't doing Ivy's sanity any favors.. That might have something to do with it.

[Dina]

Yes, because Harry is known for following reasonable advices   . And I agree there were no more social messages, that is my point.

[Bad Alias]

Mira is correct that we don't know Harry hasn't written her a note or letter. I'd think Jim would have brought it up in PT if Harry had, but it might not have been immediately relevant to PT/BG, so Jim didn't put it in.

Based on PT/BG, Harry doesn't have any reason to think that Ivy is upset with him. Odin avoided interacting with him too. Appearances are important. That would be reason enough.

[Dina]

Yes, I said I agree in that with Mira but I feel that his inner monologue indicates that he didn't write her. And I also agree, he has not idea Ivy is upset with him (or what happened with Kinkaid). So yes, appearances are important.