Author Topic: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]  (Read 70568 times)

Offline Dina

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #120 on: October 18, 2020, 11:00:16 PM »
Wow, just wow.
Missing you, Md 

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Offline StrayDog

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #121 on: October 18, 2020, 11:15:45 PM »
Yeah, this. mostly because of character action causing me to lose interest/respect in them.

Yes, one hundred times over, Yes!

- Murph dies, removing her form the series. Annoying, but - becoming a valkyrie undermines both her shown religious beliefs and her refusal to sign on to any of the powers to be healed.

Dresden then belittles her death, sub serving the narrative so it's all about him

- Dresden threatens One Eye 2nd hand if he mistreats Murph...after failing to avenge her while on the spot. Blow hard.

Standard sociopathic behavior, falls in line with "He said  .... " to set a narrative that favors the narcissus. Disagree about the avenge, would change to say failed to properly secure area due to self involvement. [Mira and Dina completely disagree with all]

- Gard fails to call him out on this.

She should have put a knife to his neck and gave him a choice of correcting his statement or whistle through a sad throat.

- twerp who murdered Murph justified it by calling her a terrorist, so no doubt will be promoted, not punished, given the mortal decision to call the trashing of Chicago a terrorist attack.

Not sure I would go this far

- sword that broke rather than let Murph try and save Harry, is happy to kill Harry rather than let him avenge Murph.

Hate to point out, "Vengeance is mine sayth the Lord". Author is using this as axiom. The lightsaber thing is crap though.

- sword wielders would rather 11 million innocents die that permit the punishment of 1 murderer.

Only valid if the one murderer is the same that will kill the 11 million

That's *one* plot....

Marcone was interesting because he was the vanilla mortal who could stand equal with supernaturals. Now he's just another coppertop.

Thomas, the schemer, just buckles to blackmail. Not, for example, waltzing in and saying "hey, I'm being blackmailed to murder you, what say you pretend to be murdered and throw me in a cell" or something similar. Justine's now full villain - when the smart thing to do, given she would probably die from child birth, would have Alfred toss her into the same cell as Thomas so that the kid can't kill her. (So finding out about Nemesis *after* already locking Nemesis up).

Molly goes cackling witch.

Ramirez goes whinny teenager.

Ebenezer's response to "Oh, I didn't kill you in a fit of fury?" is indifference.

The most significant character I still care about is Mouse. My biggest question at the end of the book was "where's Mister?" (With the Carpenters, apparently. Who I stopped caring about due to the worthlessness of the entire order).

Wanna feel more disgusted?  Listen to the audiobook and enjoy [severe sarcasm] Marsters interpretation. This is not their best work.

Offline Dina

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #122 on: October 18, 2020, 11:49:07 PM »
Wanna feel more disgusted?  Listen to the audiobook and enjoy [severe sarcasm] Marsters interpretation. This is not their best work.

Really? I don't do audiobooks, but you are the first person I read criticizing Marsters work (except for some brief comments about nordic words and things like that)
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #123 on: October 19, 2020, 12:22:43 AM »
Really? I don't do audiobooks, but you are the first person I read criticizing Marsters work (except for some brief comments about nordic words and things like that)
Peace Talks was not Marster's best work.  Sound quality is not good, the voices are off.  Maybe not enough rehearsal time, it's hard to tell from the outside looking in.

Offline StrayDog

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #124 on: October 19, 2020, 12:28:29 AM »
Really? I don't do audiobooks, but you are the first person I read criticizing Marsters work (except for some brief comments about nordic words and things like that)

That's probably because up until this year, his readings of DF books have been outstanding. PT/BG not so much. Don't know if it was too rusty, maybe adding personal interpretation that wasn't actually written, or even reading it like JB intended it to be which would be adding information into the book that a reader's mind wouldn't put in there. I was very disappointed.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #125 on: October 24, 2020, 02:07:42 AM »
This is pretty clearly a “set up” book.  Setting things in place for later in the series.  Changes did the same thing but much more effectively by giving Harry a single narrow objective, save Maggie, while the the world tilted around him.

This time Harry’s involvement was much wider.  Wouldn’t this story have been better served if it had been a stand alone set in the Dresdenverse written in 3rd person with multiple POVs rater than just Harry?  It would have served the same purpose without making the events seem... small.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 01:32:28 PM by SerScot »
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2020, 03:29:46 AM »
Or maybe Namshiel was just not that interested in the eye. He wants Marcone dependent on him and not on something else. His goal is to corrupt Marcone and as many people as he can manage. Maybe to corrupt Harry, that is a price.

Corrupting the bearers certainly seems to be a goal, but I'm not sure the Church isn't failing to understand other goals when they think it's all a struggle for the Denarians' souls. As far as the immortals are concerned, it's five minutes to midnight on the major throw-down to culminate this cycle of the starborn conjunction calendar. I'm not sure further corrupting some souls is *that* big a deal for Namshiel, compared to making advantageous moves in the bigger landscape.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2020, 04:34:36 AM »
Corrupting the bearers certainly seems to be a goal, but I'm not sure the Church isn't failing to understand other goals when they think it's all a struggle for the Denarians' souls. As far as the immortals are concerned, it's five minutes to midnight on the major throw-down to culminate this cycle of the starborn conjunction calendar. I'm not sure further corrupting some souls is *that* big a deal for Namshiel, compared to making advantageous moves in the bigger landscape.
Corrupting souls is their purpose. There’s is window dressing. Nicodemus grand plan is just something to keep him busy and distract him.from what is really happening.
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Offline Dina

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2020, 05:45:08 AM »
This is pretty clearly a “set up” book.  Setting things in place for later in the series.  Changes did the same thing but much more effectively by giving Harry a single narrow objective, save Maggie, while the the world tilted around him.

This time Harry’s involvment wad much wider.  Wouldn’t this story have been better served if it had been a stand alone set in the Dresdenverse written in 3rd person with multiple POVs rater than just Harry?  It would have served the same purpose without making the events seem... small.

Small??  :o

And I don't know. I mean, yes, the battle scenes would have read better in 3rd person but Harry is still the lead character in this story and we need to know his struggle, his thoughts. What he was thinking when he did some things, his emotions. So yes, if it is multiple POV with Harry as one of those voices I guess it could have worked better than this.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2020, 10:35:21 AM »
I was coming to this thread to sort of whine about how those two books have terrible narrative structure, and are basically clusterfuck.
But thank you guys for now making me defending it - a little bit at least.

Yup.

So first things I agree from last few posts:

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Peace Talks was not Marster's best work.  Sound quality is not good, the voices are off.  Maybe not enough rehearsal time, it's hard to tell from the outside looking in.

Yeah I agree. And there are few moments where there is clear cut, and once I'm quite sure sentence read by someone else cause they forget about it with James. Shoddy. But then Battle Ground is way better, and why I'm angry for instance with killing off Murphy (not killing per se, but contrieved way to do it - Marsters made it excellent).

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Thomas, the schemer, just buckles to blackmail. Not, for example, waltzing in and saying "hey, I'm being blackmailed to murder you, what say you pretend to be murdered and throw me in a cell" or something similar. Justine's now full villain - when the smart thing to do, given she would probably die from child birth, would have Alfred toss her into the same cell as Thomas so that the kid can't kill her. (So finding out about Nemesis *after* already locking Nemesis up).

Totally agree. This whole Nemesis Thomas story is utter nonsense. Thomas acts like absolute idiot, and fact he is ready to tell Harry it's Justine afterwards is even worse. Srsly everyone acts like utter dumbass here, and Nemesis plan is also full of holes - and no her "act of faith" and "apocalypse is state of mind" speech does not justifies it.
It's fanfiction, teenage level storytelling level. No way especially after Cold Days that Thomas would react to such blackmail simply with going on with it.

Also why the child? Like really? For what? Justine itself would not be good enough to force Thomas to do something? And if Nemesis is not able to hurt Justine simply by being it, why we consider baby in danger?

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Bloody stupid.
For all contrievances of those books, and of all saga - this is the worst.

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This time Harry’s involvment wad much wider.  Wouldn’t this story have been better served if it had been a stand alone set in the Dresdenverse written in 3rd person with multiple POVs rater than just Harry?  It would have served the same purpose without making the events seem... small.

I had another idea. Rather than Endgame - make it Saving Private Ryan. Push Harry to wander as middle-weight through burning Chicago to proper place to attack Ethniu when most things happen beyond his sight. Torture him with sounds and smell. Put some fight within but small. Make him be accompanied by Knights, few Alphas and Murphy, and that's it. Maybe gather small army way later.
Do not put him everywhere. Kill at least three semi-important characters of screen - like wardens could totally die without Harry being there.

Just stop yourself from need to showing everything Jim. You write FPP books - accept their limitations.

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Corrupting the bearers certainly seems to be a goal, but I'm not sure the Church isn't failing to understand other goals when they think it's all a struggle for the Denarians' souls. As far as the immortals are concerned, it's five minutes to midnight on the major throw-down to culminate this cycle of the starborn conjunction calendar. I'm not sure further corrupting some souls is *that* big a deal for Namshiel, compared to making advantageous moves in the bigger landscape.

I agree. Denarians are clearly more about stopping Outsiders, maybe by producing own Apocalypse to take over reality, before puny mortals and demigos allow Outer Gates to fall, than about simply corrupting people.


OK, so now about things I really disagree with in terms of criticism.

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- Murph dies, removing her form the series. Annoying, but - becoming a valkyrie undermines both her shown religious beliefs and her refusal to sign on to any of the powers to be healed.

Primo, she becomes Einhernjarn not Valkyrie. Second, valkyries are mortals with benefits. If she made deal with Odin - service for power when alive she could become one. Third, really after two divorces, breaking freaking Sword of the Cross, rejecting KotC job because she's too strong and independent to serve Divine Providence, after all those things let's be honest - Catholic upbringing is just excuse to avoid unwanted flirting with Valkyries :P Quatro, more importantly - you know Odin has claim of fallen in battles at least those somehow sacrificed to them. It's possible he could take Murphy and she had little to say about it. Free will of mortals is not absolute power.

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- Dresden threatens One Eye 2nd hand if he mistreats Murph...after failing to avenge her while on the spot. Blow hard.
- Gard fails to call him out on this.

How are those two comparable? Now that I think about it Gard could call him for it - as norse paganism was hard for vengeance, but really those are two different things. If Odin is bad guy secretely torturing Einhernjars then Dresden has reason to fight him, to stop this.
There was no stoping anyway with Rudolph. It was manslaughter due to negligence. He didn't plan it - he was not planning to dunno help Fomor or Ethniu. Literally no reason to kill him - at least not from Christian perspective of Angel within Lightsaber :P
People are just for blood, to get satisfaction not because it really solves anything - and it's smart from Jim side to say his readers - No, you bunch of fucking sociopaths!

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Dresden then belittles her death, sub serving the narrative so it's all about him [...] Standard sociopathic behavior, falls in line with "He said  .... " to set a narrative that favors the narcissus.

A bit yes - though in a way - Dresden serves very nicely as readers proxy here. Really suitable.
Because I've seen ton of two things: primo, calling for Rudolph's blood and inventing terrible punishments for him; secundo, whining that Murphy's death was stupid, worthless, undignified, that she should go like a badass, dunno with dead Jotun falling over her than anything. And both times Dresden as our proxy is smacked. And I must say I find his reaction somehow justified - primo, it's not like he is recruit for Valhalla hiring standards, second, for him like for many readers this death must seems like really... bad, like freak accident, stupid Rudolph in middle of everything. As for many readers it's not proper hero exit for him, and Gard is there to sort of call him back to senses.

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- twerp who murdered Murph justified it by calling her a terrorist, so no doubt will be promoted, not punished, given the mortal decision to call the trashing of Chicago a terrorist attack.
- sword that broke rather than let Murph try and save Harry, is happy to kill Harry rather than let him avenge Murph.
- sword wielders would rather 11 million innocents die that permit the punishment of 1 murderer.

Look, dude. You can sort of dislike White God perspective on justice, but it is what it is. What have you expected after all those years with Knights of the Cross? That they would condone personal vengeance? Blood for blood? Not gonna happen. Wanna vengeance go with Winter or Odin. You have plenty teams around with different take on morality.

There are rules, and rules will be obeyed. Harry made Amorachius breakable because he used it to trick faerie in book 3. Sure murder is out of the question.

Not to mention. Rudolph is not a murderer. Not by any sane justice system.
What he did was manslaughter due to negligence. He didn't want, or plan to kill Murphy - damn Harry can clearly feel his self-loathing later.
He's just coward in denial. Pityful. Somehow this pityfullness makes people more angry, funny enough.
Shit I think if Drakul or Redcap would shank Murphy for political gain - people would be less for their blood (or whatever Drakul has) because at least they are cool, not pathetic.

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Marcone was interesting because he was the vanilla mortal who could stand equal with supernaturals. Now he's just another coppertop.

Absolutely disagree. Whole point is - you cannot. United States as a whole nation maybe could - but single vanilla mortal is not for long game. Neither Murphy, nor Marcone. Arm up or die. There will be no mortal-empowering message here - and I am happy for that, it's overall realistic if disheartning a bit. And let's remember Marcone last time just after becoming Baron - was kidnapped and almost murdered or converted by force by Denarians, and his status did him nothing - if not for Dresden's and Knight's help he'd be toast. So of course he seek power. He is freaking crime lord - not some defender of humanity.

Another good thing is Marcone has definitely much too following as "honorable godfather" so I'm really happy to see something that may sour his image in eyes of readers.

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Molly goes cackling witch.

I think Molly quite finely shifts between herself and Winter Lady. Which is to be expected until some mayor shift in this field.

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Ramirez goes whinny teenager.

To some extent. But both he and Dresden are guilty of this miscommunication. If anything Dresden more.
He lies to Ramirez since book 9 (there is literally scene in "White Night" when Ramirez points out to him that he keeps secrets, important ones, just as Ramirez is taking his call to help him take down Malvora and Madrigal - and it doesn't changes a bit.).

And of course Ramirez is in even worse shape and more prejudiced against Winter Faerie, after Molly almost ripped him to shreds. So that should also be taken into account.

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Ebenezer's response to "Oh, I didn't kill you in a fit of fury?" is indifference.

Is it? He's first sorrowful, then furious for Harry deceit. Then we don't see him till Battle Ground - when we do not get much resolution because McCoy is keeping cold head - Dresden says it himself, he can feel Ebenezer is still angry, but he focus on battle, and tries to convince Dresden to not fall into Mab's clutch - though their discussion is very vague as they are not alone, so - PT events are not directly mentioned.
I think we gonna get some discussion between Dresden and McCoy in "Twelve Months".


Extra thing: what makes me angry about Karrin's death is not well that she dies as vanilla mortals, and bit in accident than in fight itself.
It's extreme contrieved, and extremely telegraphed.
Her scenes with Dresden are just reeking with "love interest will be killed" vibe all those books.
Rudolph trigger finger is over-foreshadows to nausea.

So what I'd change - just cut Rudolph from it. He is not needed, aside to apparently give readers and Dresden more hate than it's healthy, and fact they are constantly meeting is just too coincidental. (And it being reason of supernatural manipulation would make it even worse).
Then - place this book year later. Let relationship of Dresden and Murphy go from this semi-honeymoon-but-she's-crippled to some more interesting moment when they plan how to arrange this common life all things consider. Like for instance Karrin being sort of step-mother, and those things.
Most optimally book between SG and PT, where Karrin have to really struggle and get to peace with her condition - only to of course go into heat of battle anyway when her city is in danger.





Offline Mira

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2020, 12:12:07 PM »
Quote

Extra thing: what makes me angry about Karrin's death is not well that she dies as vanilla mortals, and bit in accident than in fight itself.
It's extreme contrieved, and extremely telegraphed.
Her scenes with Dresden are just reeking with "love interest will be killed" vibe all those books.
Rudolph trigger finger is over-foreshadows to nausea.

Agreed, it was telegraphed when Christmas Eve first came out last Christmas.  No, she isn't mentioned but to anyone who has faced a first holiday minus a loved one that close, knows. The
contrived bit is Rudolph showing up early in Peace Talks, then making his paranoid presence known early in Battle Ground.  Murphy can barely move all during Peace Talks, but then takes down a Valkyrie?  Instant fight, her good side, surprise, didn't last over thirty seconds, okay, believable sort of.  But suddenly her pain is taken away and her still injured tendons and ligaments [she was needing more surgery remember, then only to get to fifty percent] muscles weakened from months in a cast, and she is riding a motorcycle and shouldering a bazooka like nothing had happened to her?  Really?
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So what I'd change - just cut Rudolph from it. He is not needed, aside to apparently give readers and Dresden more hate than it's healthy, and fact they are constantly meeting is just too coincidental. (And it being reason of supernatural manipulation would make it even worse).
Then - place this book year later. Let relationship of Dresden and Murphy go from this semi-honeymoon-but-she's-crippled to some more interesting moment when they plan how to arrange this common life all things consider. Like for instance Karrin being sort of step-mother, and those things.
Most optimally book between SG and PT, where Karrin have to really struggle and get to peace with her condition - only to of course go into heat of battle anyway when her city is in danger.

I agree, I also think if Murphy remained with a fifty percent disability, it wouldn't last between her and Harry.  Namely because she would have struggled with her condition and I doubt she'd ever be at peace with it.  She wouldn't want anyone around her, she may have even gone back to drinking. Hints of that after Grave Peril, she didn't want any help with that then, I doubt that she'd have changed that much.  Then go off and die in the heat of battle injured or not, because that is who she was. 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 02:47:05 PM by Mira »

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2020, 01:27:56 PM »
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Agreed, it was telegraphed when Christmas Eve first came out last Christmas.  No, she isn't mentioned but to anyone who has faced a first holiday minus a loved on that close, knows

I suspected that strongly.
But as soon as they get to their sex scene and Dresden went limp - I was like - OF COURSE SHE'S DEAD.

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The contrived bit is Rudolph showing up early in Peace Talks, then making his paranoid presence known early in Battle Ground.

His presence in Peace Talks is only one not really contrieved - this at first sounded like some serious fallout from Skin Game, but was soon thrown away to make Rudolph a killer. Which is way less interested than Dresden arrested for murder tbh.

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But suddenly her pain is taken away and her still injured tendons and ligaments [she was needing more surgery remember, then only to get to fifty percent] muscles weakened from months in a cast, and she is riding a motorcycle and shouldering a bazooka like nothing had happened to her?  Really?

Yeah, I agree. There's Dresden mantle hiding away the pain, and there is destroyed ligament. Even if Mab can use Winter power to hide the pain, it won't heal tendons.

Really and from character perspective we really should get a book where Murphy has to cope she's out of action.
And then in Battle of Chicago - damn she can take Odin's proposition to become Valkyrie, that should heal her just fine, and she can be still killed as valkyrie - ironically even, doing power up after opposing it for a long long years and still dying.

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I agree, I also think if Murphy remained with a fifty percent disability, it wouldn't last between her and Harry.  Namely because she would have struggled with her condition and I doubt she'd ever be at peace with it.  She wouldn't want anyone around her, she may have even gone back to drinking. Hints of that after Grave Peril, she didn't want any help with that then, I doubt that she'd have changed that much.  Then go off and die in the heat of battle injured or not, because that is who she was.

You know what and that's why I totally think we needed just one book between to let her cope with it, and finally resolve at least some issues.
Because seriously after Battle Ground it's sort of shown her unresolved issues are like pure virtue and valor and I believe it's way way more complicated. And I'm not really that much into stuborness as virtue, so unraveling it a bit could be fine.

Now of course due to Dresden Files formula there are generally problems with character development in a long run.
10 years passed and development we get is worthy maybe of 2 years in some TV show, and it's sort of with most characters though Dresden and Murphy are most visible because they are almost in every book. (And to some degree it's also matter of both Jim liking to write characters like that, and readers being used to them like that - and any serious change can get serious reactions. I really hope this new "Twelve Months" novel will finally delve more in this field - even if it's bit too late - at least to late to Murphy.

But hey maybe we'll meet her in burning Valhalla and she'll have some resolution in this regard.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #132 on: October 24, 2020, 01:31:23 PM »
Small??  :o

And I don't know. I mean, yes, the battle scenes would have read better in 3rd person but Harry is still the lead character in this story and we need to know his struggle, his thoughts. What he was thinking when he did some things, his emotions. So yes, if it is multiple POV with Harry as one of those voices I guess it could have worked better than this.

Yes, small.  This was like attempting to write a novel about Waterloo with the main character observing what was happening through a keyhole.  It inevitably limits the view of the reader to that which is before the 1st person observer. 

Having Murphy as a POV would have broadened the scope tremendously.  Then add Ramierez (we’d have better insight into his anger and bitterness with Harry and Molly he would seem less petulant.  Even Gard would have been interesting).
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #133 on: October 24, 2020, 01:48:46 PM »
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Yes, small.  This was like attempting to write a novel about Waterloo with the main character observing what was happening through a keyhole.

Which is not bad idea. If you know your limitations and your character is not suddenly in ALL important moments of battle.

Offline Mira

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Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« Reply #134 on: October 24, 2020, 03:02:23 PM »
Quote

Having Murphy as a POV would have broadened the scope tremendously.  Then add Ramierez (we’d have better insight into his anger and bitterness with Harry and Molly he would seem less petulant.  Even Gard would have been interesting).

I just had a thought about Carlos, I wonder if part of his bitterness stems not just from the fact that he really didn't, understand how it works with Winter Ladies, but doesn't know that neither did Molly.  Worse yet, does he think because Harry is Winter Knight he may have access where he doesn't?

I don't know if writing it from someone else's point of view would have made that much difference over all.  I've read Aftermath, Bombshells, and Backup, all three supposedly from another point of view, but they all sound the same.  It is like Jim can write Murphy from Harry's point of view, but cannot get inside her head for it to sound like her, to me it still sounds like Harry with Murphy's voice.  If that makes any sense?

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His presence in Peace Talks is only one not really contrieved - this at first sounded like some serious fallout from Skin Game, but was soon thrown away to make Rudolph a killer. Which is way less interested than Dresden arrested for murder tbh.

For a number of reasons it sounded contrived.  The first thing, why in the hell was it a I.A. investigation?  Both Harry and Murphy were civilians, no longer connected with the police force, and they were also both civilians when the supposed crimes were committed.  Bradley didn't understand why they were there.  If they were homicide, it would be different, Rudolph also sounded off from the get go.