The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
Mira:
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 24, 2020, 05:45:23 PM ---Well indeed. I'm just pointing that following "gut" is just as choice-y as overcoming it, and if choice is possible, like really possible it should count as splitting decision.
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Yes, and that is the paradox, often "choice," is a split decision between what our gut tells us and what our head tells us. It gets more complicated because both have a rippling effect of consequences for yourself and for others.. You can also make a horrible choice either with your gut or your head and feel good about it, even if the choice was a very wrong one.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on November 24, 2020, 07:38:11 PM ---I disagree with the intellect over emotion/instinct definition of free will. I'd more say free will is the ability to actually make a choice as opposed to a deterministic and mechanical view of reality in which we just respond to cause with effect, whether emotionally or intellectually.
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It seems inevitable because emotions are the expression of your nature which is linked with your spiritual power which is linked to your magic. Magic is strongly linked with emotions.
--- Quote ---I'm suggesting that in Harry's world as laid out by Jim Butcher, people can not exercise their free will because that's what Uriel seems to say in The Warrior.
Now, one can argue what Uriel means by "truly" exercising free will is that acting in accord with one's nature, while an exercise of free will, isn't any different than if one didn't have free will in the first place.
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All humans can but they don't often do so. That is what he said.
--- Quote ---WoJ on Free Will Creating Parallel Universes:
(click to show/hide)One of my favorite parts of your novels are the divine and the demonic, and kind of how they offer (?) each other, and how they have rules, and I wanted to ask, what made you decide that Chicago wasn’t enough, that all of Creation has to be at stake?
Well, it’s not all of Creation. It’s just all of THIS Creation. We haven’t really pulled the camera back far enough yet. There’s a lot of reality in the Dresden Files. The Dresden Files is a universe that is driven by Free Will, and every time you make a choice, it creates a new universe. So, there’s this vast spectrum of universe out there, and it’s not just ours, there’s causality going off in every direction. So a philosophical war on that scale is something that is just so tremendous you can barely imagine it. And while it dwarfs into unimportance our particular universe, at the same time, the only way to win that war is one choice at a time, one person at a time. And that’s really what’s going on at the level where the angels are operating, that’s what they’re concerned about. On the level where Dresden’s operating, its like, “How can I survive until the next chapter?” and that’s sort of the problem that we’ve got, as people, how do we look out and try to fix the things that are wrong with our world, when we’re basically going, “How do I get to the next chapter?” How can we have that longer view point, do we need it? I don’t know the answers to questions like that, but I enjoy the hell out of torturing Dresden with them! That’s really kind of the point of what I do. (Emphasis added).
If everything is a choice and every choice results in a reality where the consequences of that choice plays out, does free will even exist? Every choice must be made, so no choice is volitional. If it's not volitional, it's not a choice. Thus if everything is a choice and:
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Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---Emphasis added.
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Yes, but it helps... nothing from my perspective. If Dresden using free will means all possible uses are enforced and split universe in two or more, then leaving natural choice out of equation, changes nothing because still choice is more like shtick to make more universes than REAL choice. Because ALWAYS all choices will happen and person will split in all AU versions of himself.
It helps in no way really - because still it's not one unique Dresden making one unique choice that cannot be changed and shall change fate of the universe - it's all possible Dresdens doing all possible choices. Which matters from perspective of specific split!Dresdens but not from multiverse perspective - not from Creation perspective which holds all possible Dresdens.
So if choice is not really unique I see no reason to exclude natural choices - it's just make things unecessary convoluted and do not solve problem of uniqueness of Harry Dresden at all. Oh, look it's just one AU Dresden from 15 less. Great, now I feel our Dresden is so much more unique, dammit.
--- Quote ---I'd say your's is an odd definition of against. It's often in one's best interest to act against one's nature.
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That depends how you define nature. If just as pure biological emotions then sure - but human between free will and animalistic instincts there is like shit-ton of psychology in work.
--- Quote ---I disagree with the intellect over emotion/instinct definition of free will. I'd more say free will is the ability to actually make a choice as opposed to a deterministic and mechanical view of reality in which we just respond to cause with effect, whether emotionally or intellectually.
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But still it's limited by once intellect.
My view is - for human being able to exercise free will - his mind, his reason has to show him at least two believable alternatives. Two choices his brain can consider possible. Free will need to be based on lower perception - or there is no choice to talk about. Sometimes brain gives us really just one choice - and we just go with it. Sometimes it shows us two or more, then the game begins.
But if your brain shows your self two possible choices - then neither of those choices is like just emotional reaction determined by situation, otherwise alternative would be not presented by reason. So if there is a possible choice - then choice have to be taken, because our perception, our intellect puts us before two possible door at least. If our reason won't show us alternatives - choice is impossible, as there's only one mechanical mode of working. If it shows us alternatives then neither is like NATURAL and DETERMINED because choice was given, and neither is certain till choice is made.
--- Quote ---If everything is a choice and every choice results in a reality where the consequences of that choice plays out, does free will even exist? Every choice must be made, so no choice is volitional. If it's not volitional, it's not a choice. Thus if everything is a choice and:
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I understand it Alias. Just for me your solution does not make free will more expensive really.
Primo if you make choice against nature in your equation - but there is no alternative that is ALSO against nature, then only this one Choice is made, and universe won't split because natural choice is just dropped from equation. But if you have two choices against nature - all shall happen each time you use even one of them. And that's still cheapens what Dresden is doing - because for every choice there are other choices. Skipping natural won't help, it's still cheapened from cosmic perspective. There still will be hunderds or thousands of Dresden playing all those choices out.
So it's more like - Universe is almost determined but you can sometimes split it into multiple branches which destroys primeval line of determinism, not just make new branches, and so on, and so on, and so on. I somehow doubt it because we know even if people use free will seldom it's still enough to make helluva splits, and Mab warned that it's not a wise choice to split destiny.
In your equation - basic determined outcome is doomed, because free will shall destroy it.
I think in this moment we need to get in peace with simple answer: free will matters as a way to multiply Creation and therefore create choices in which well Reality is not eaten by Outsiders for instance. Which can be one of million branches for all we know. Nevertheless all shall be played and billions shall perish beyond Outer Gates.
And it matters from personal perspective of our Harry which is maybe one of possible Harrys and in the end all Harry's had to happen each time choice was given, but still he's unique because he's our hero, and go to hell Darth Dresden.
I can live with that, even if I'd prefer if Jim read less Marvel/DC :P
--- Quote ---It seems inevitable because emotions are the expression of your nature which is linked with your spiritual power which is linked to your magic. Magic is strongly linked with emotions.
--- End quote ---
Intelect is too. Just Harry won't use it much in his spellcraft, so he cannot precisely disintegrate enemies for instance.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 24, 2020, 10:15:16 PM ---If Dresden using free will means all possible uses are enforced ...
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I've repeatedly said some number of universes are created that are less than all possible choices. To oversimplify my head canon, there are two universes created by every act of free will. One where the actor chooses to act one way and another where they choose to act in a different way. Each choice is a choice to act beyond and in opposition to what an otherwise accurate deterministic model of the Dresdenverse would have predicted.
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 24, 2020, 10:15:16 PM ---If it shows us alternatives then neither is like NATURAL and DETERMINED because choice was given, and neither is certain till choice is made.
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Determinists would say that the appearance of choice is an illusion and all biology, reason, thinking, etc. just boils down to physics.
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 24, 2020, 10:15:16 PM ---But if you have two choices against nature - all shall happen each time you use even one of them. And that's still cheapens what Dresden is doing - because for every choice there are other choices.
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What if there are thousands of possible choices and two universes result?
morriswalters:
The problem with Free Will as Jim uses it, is that it is contrived and not subject to analysis. Thousands of choices got Harry to whatever point he gets to. By the time you get to whatever the event is, there really aren't any choices left to make, assuming that Dresden is who he is. You've already made them prior to that instant. Which is what Uriel is saying.
Carry on.
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