The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
The Placard
Mira:
--- Quote ---That scene doesn't "show" anything though; it doesn't quantify sin or even suggest that it is real beyond the metaphorical concept. Harry isn't even sure that the use is the same. And it certainly doesn't show that Christ saved anyone. It implies what he might have used the Placard for... although there is no indication that it was anything other than a normal placard when it was used on Jesus. If anything, the constant implication is that Christ made those objects special.
--- End quote ---
True, actually I don't think sin can be something that can be quantified. I think man tends to label things as "sin" as defined by his or her belief system. There are a few outstanding things like murder for example that we can all agree on as a sin. Then there are the minor things, drinking, per-marital sex, smoking, dancing, swearing, etc....There is a long list of them. Some were sins a hundred years ago, but accepted now as perfectly fine.
Just did a quick check and placards weren't usually nailed above the condemned on the cross, though the condemned sometimes carried them in the street on their way to execution.
The question you are asking is a matter of belief. If one believes that Jesus truly died on the Cross so we may be forgiven our sins, then the placard could hold great power. For the sake of the story, the assumption is this is true, so the Placard has great power, the Dresden Files is also a fantasy, so for the sake of the story, the Placard can mean anything the author wants.
Yuillegan:
Agreed. Sins have changed over the decades and centuries. If mortal actions in the series can have spiritual weight (which is hinted at) then one could argue that were a "force" affecting them then that could be seen as sin, and therefore the action sinful. Whether this is the case or not is unknown as Jim hasn't gone into it yet. But nothing we have seen yet in the series indicates that sin is a force beyond being a metaphor.
I'm not asking about the real world applications or powers of a placard that was hung above the man known as Jesus Christ. Let's steer clear of real world discussion on such a sensitive issue.
I am asking about the in-universe explanation for the Placard in the narrative. As I said, real world information can be useful in speculating what might be true in the series. But ultimately it is merely a guide and not even necessarily a reliable one. Jim hasn't revealed enough yet.
I don't think the Placard holds power because enough people believe in it (it's one of the lesser known items of the Arma Christi in fact). It's not like the "fake" shroud in Death Masks. It's something that has been charged with an incredible amount of spiritual energy on the scale of the Swords of the Cross. Maybe greater.
I do indeed appreciate that because the Dresden Files is a fictional series, anything borrowed from our world can mean whatever Jim Butcher as the author wishes it to mean. I understand how fiction works, there is no need to condescend please.
But considering THIS is a forum for discussion of said series, it's entirely reasonable to ask about the the mechanics and narrative devices in the context of the story. If people don't have answers that is more than fine. But I think respectful discussion is the minimum requirement here. And invite all opinions to be discussed within that framework.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on September 24, 2020, 02:14:30 AM ---Alright, let's get a few things straight Sibelis.
You don't know me, so don't presume to know my views or beliefs. This forum is one for the discussion of spoilers pertaining to the Dresden Files series. Attack my arguments by all means but steer clear of attacking me. It's entirely inappropriate to comment on or speculate on my religious beliefs (or lack of as the case may be). My beliefs are and views are irrelevant and no one else's business, nor are anyone else's on this forum. So I remind you that such speculation and discussion are against the rules of this forum and I invite you to engage me based on the points I raise in my arguments, not speculate on things that are outside the purview of the topic. I understand you might feel that I attacked something you believe in, but I did not, and to do so would have been wrong of me.
I am not, and was not, attacking or otherwise railing against Christian beliefs. My argument was clear enough and if you read it back carefully you will see that I disagreed that the passage "shows" what you claimed. I did not say that Christ didn't die for the sins of humanity or sin wasn't real, I stayed well outside our real world and made no definitive statement or position on real world topics and would ask you do the same. Do not mistake my tone for anger. I am being direct because it is necessary in order to have respectful debate on this forum.
Now to your argument itself.
1. How does the scene "show" sin in a quantifiable way, how does it show Christ died for the sins of humanity in the Dresden Files? "Show" means to cause something to be visible or perceived. In what way was Sin or Christ's redemption visible in that scene?
An example of something (such as a force) being shown in the series is Soulfire. In SmF Harry first shows an application of Soulfire (even though we do not yet know what it is). We later get a small explanation from Mab to what it is, and further from Bob. An excellent scene with both exposition of the force that is Soulfire and the application of it is during Cold Days when Harry contests with the will of Mother Winter and breaks the bonds laid on him.
In no way does the scene in which the Placard is used show sin.
Where in that body of text is the force that is Sin shown? Where is the exposition or depiction of Christ redeeming humanity? It isn't there. This is the only bit that even references it, and Harry thinks it is a maybe. It is unclear, uncertain, and lacking in detail. Which is part of why it's in there. For us readers to speculate on and for Jim to perhaps lay some ground work. It certainly doesn't connect how even the event of pouring the "accumulated sins of humanity onto Christ" would create an "embodied intercission" or what it had to do with Christ's redemption of humanity. It's not facts, even in-universe, it is speculation. Whether the event (read:crucifixion) happened in the Dresdenverse (seems likely) and what was actually going on beyond the torture and execution of God's only Son has not been stated. Some on these forums believe Jim will never make a definite statement about it at all. I suspect he will but currently we have next to know facts about the event. Using real world information from our universe is good for speculation but ultimately is still not fact and you can be sure Jim will have his own take. But we must be careful not to confuse a work of fiction with an event in our world.
Even if you believe Harry is Doylistly (as you put it) supplying the reader with information, it isn't clear in-universe how he came in possession of such high-level information (unless you believe any old person in the series could just find out). So the fact remains that either it is poor writing and Jim just forgot to mention how Harry actually found this out OR he is setting it up for later. Which is more likely.
I have no idea what you mean when you say that you couldn't use the Placard in such a way if sin WASN'T a quantifiable force. The scene explains how the artifact can be used, sure. But it doesn't say how the artifact came to be this way. It was just a sign originally, as far as we know. It's association with the Crucifixion and Christ is likely (but not definitely) how it gained it unique properties but we don't know for sure, as Jim hasn't yet explained that. Even Harry doesn't know - he is merely speculating.
The closest we have come to seeing something like Sin is the corruption that Lasciel and Anduriel have displayed. Lasciel mentions that the Fallen are corruption, and Anduriel shows his influence in Skin Game when pulsing while Nicodemus is having a monologue. But even there it isn't explicit. So for now, it's as much a metaphor in the series as love (in fact more so).
--- End quote ---
back up, take a breath, and remember you are not required to argue against ANYTHING here. Addressing me in such a manor is way beyond any presumed rule breaking you'd claim of me. I asked you to pls not do something you did appear to be doing. And your reply coming so strongly implies to me you were indeed doing that and don't appreciate being called out for it. If it's a non issue then me thinks doth protest too much and all that... But let's move on to your supposed points against it shall we?
1 by the fact TWC could conceivably even use the placard to bear the brunt of humanities sin, the DF tends to parallel and respect irl religion in so much as Jim is capable. For harry to go out of his way to state that's the kind of thing TWC used it for is very much a statement to what it was used for and how TWC literally saved us from Sin. Jim didn't have to throw that in there anymore than say, that Santa is a summonable fae, but he did. And it he did with INTENTIONS. To imply that it's even possible shows sin as a quantifiable force. Something which can be given a vector of direction and magnitude using the placard.
Everything else is just as much supposition against it as the idea for it. When one theory exists based on something in the books, someone else gain saying it by simply not agreeing isn't actually a thing, no matter how much it might be wished to be. Otherwise I'd blast that three walkers/who walks between outta the water there.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I am asking about the in-universe explanation for the Placard in the narrative. As I said, real world information can be useful in speculating what might be true in the series. But ultimately it is merely a guide and not even necessarily a reliable one. Jim hasn't revealed enough yet.
--- End quote ---
Which I don't think you will get, simply because it is based on faith and not actually quantitative evidence. It is universally believed among Christians that Jesus died for our sins and the importance of God's forgiveness. There is no concrete proof of any of that, but that is the belief. You will notice that "faith" is an important theme in the series as a whole. Example, the bogus Shroud in Death Masks, Harry could feel the power it held. Later in Skin Game we learned that it was fake, but it was speculated that it had become powerful because people believed it was real.
As far as the Placard goes, there is no real world explanation for it that I can find, other than if it were found and authenticated, it would be treated as a Holy Relic, not unlike fragments of what people believe is the "True Cross." Jim has made up his own facts about what the Placard if found would mean, partly based on the original concept of why Christ died on the Cross, and what he needs to make up, to further the story.
BrainFireBob:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on September 24, 2020, 03:36:59 AM ---Agreed. Sins have changed over the decades and centuries. If mortal actions in the series can have spiritual weight (which is hinted at) then one could argue that were a "force" affecting them then that could be seen as sin, and therefore the action sinful. Whether this is the case or not is unknown as Jim hasn't gone into it yet. But nothing we have seen yet in the series indicates that sin is a force beyond being a metaphor.
I'm not asking about the real world applications or powers of a placard that was hung above the man known as Jesus Christ. Let's steer clear of real world discussion on such a sensitive issue.
I am asking about the in-universe explanation for the Placard in the narrative. As I said, real world information can be useful in speculating what might be true in the series. But ultimately it is merely a guide and not even necessarily a reliable one. Jim hasn't revealed enough yet.
I don't think the Placard holds power because enough people believe in it (it's one of the lesser known items of the Arma Christi in fact). It's not like the "fake" shroud in Death Masks. It's something that has been charged with an incredible amount of spiritual energy on the scale of the Swords of the Cross. Maybe greater.
I do indeed appreciate that because the Dresden Files is a fictional series, anything borrowed from our world can mean whatever Jim Butcher as the author wishes it to mean. I understand how fiction works, there is no need to condescend please.
But considering THIS is a forum for discussion of said series, it's entirely reasonable to ask about the the mechanics and narrative devices in the context of the story. If people don't have answers that is more than fine. But I think respectful discussion is the minimum requirement here. And invite all opinions to be discussed within that framework.
--- End quote ---
In universe?
The interdiction effect is incidental. It marks the owner of the placard as the proxy for the property to which it is affixed- Mac is the sacrificial lamb in place of all those who are within his delineated demesne now. They, magically speaking, are invalid targets because they "really" exist within the super-threshold of Mac's being.
You can see the line of thought. Like a video game where the cursor won't go active on invalid targets.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version