The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Do the Wardens have any 'heavy hitters' left? [Some PT Spoilers]

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vultur:

--- Quote from: forumghost on September 10, 2020, 11:12:02 AM ---Luccio was already a better fighter then him in the goddamn frontier days, and she's has a lot of time to practice since then.
--- End quote ---

Depends on situation, I think. For fighting around a lot of innocent bystanders without gear - yeah.
For something like a big open battle that's probably coming in BG ... I don't think so.

If we were talking about pure wizard skills, yeah. But Harry has a lot more than that now. When he really needs it, he can use Winter power, which gives him a ton of energy other wizards will have real trouble matching.


--- Quote ---Molly, his half-baked Apprentice, notes that he's not as good as she is at Tracking Spells, one of the things that Harry considers himself good at.
--- End quote ---

I don't think "half baked apprentice" is accurate for Molly of that era. Isn't that in Bombshells? I think she's in practice a fully capable wizard at that point ... just not recognized by the Council.

Also, Molly's way of doing things may be more efficient, but for something like tracking spells (unlike battle magic) Harry doesn't have to *care* about efficiency.


--- Quote ---Sure Harry is a walking artillery cannon, but most decent Wizards would wreck him
--- End quote ---

I really, really doubt it.

Harry has been limited in the books since Changes -- in GS he was dead, in CD and SG he was without his usual gear.

I think that's intentional. We're only going to get to see what Harry can do with everything he's learned since Changes + full gear + being Winter Knight in BG, where the opposition has been scaled up enough so that he can still be the underdog. The series is shifting again, IMO, kind of like it did in Changes.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: forumghost on September 10, 2020, 11:12:02 AM ---I doubt it. We've seen what other Wizards can do in the series, and it's pretty clear that Harry... to be blunt, he sucks ass at Wizarding.

Luccio was already a better fighter then him in the goddamn frontier days, and she's has a lot of time to practice since then.

Molly, his half-baked Apprentice, notes that he's not as good as she is at Tracking Spells, one of the things that Harry considers himself good at.

And then there's Butters, who's doesn't even have the ability to use magic- and somehow, is still better at being a Wizard then Harry. Jim has always been an advocate of skill>power, it's why Murphy can defeat people three times her size with supernatural powers.

Sure Harry is a walking artillery cannon, but most decent Wizards would wreck him, and Luccio's had a fair amount of time to adjust to her new body since we last saw her, so she's probably not as crippled as she once was.

--- End quote ---
That's a perspective, and not necessarily a invalid one. It's true that Jim often plays around with strengths and skills to create more interesting scenes - but that can lead to discrepancies in appearance. There is often a gap between what the author intends and the reader interprets, but that isn't helped when even Harry isn't the most reliable narrator.

However, when you look at his track record the results speak for themselves. No Warden (not even the dangerous old guard from before the war with the Reds) has achieved most of what Harry has achieved. No Wizard alive has taken out an entire supernatural power. No wizard among the wardens has repeatedly bested supernatural nations and entities to the level Harry has. As impressive as some of their magics might be, it's the results that count.

And then there is the argument of what dangerous or powerful really mean in terms of Wizards. The Merlin (Arthur Langtry) is both the most powerful Wizard in terms of magical muscle AND political and personal power. But it is well acknowledged that Ebeneezer is the most dangerous combat Wizard alive. He would be one of the few who might top Dresden for fights, and his kill count is clearly off the charts. But even he isn't the most dangerous Wizard. It is Rashid. And while Jim hasn't elaborated why that is, it isn't hard to tell. Rashid could cause more damage to the Universe than any of them, if he wanted to misuse/abuse his knowledge and position (not to mention if he simply failed or abandoned his duties). Beyond that, it is hinted between his age (and the knowledge and power that comes with it) and his possible (but likely) ability to gauge varying futures and their given probabilities it would be extremely difficult to out-think him. Not to mention what other tricks/skills he has. Every Wizard gives him major respect. As Jim has often shown and discussed - what really counts is knowledge, planning and execution.

Harry is simply more dangerous than most not just because of his skills, not even just because of his abilities (although I am not including his hinted at nature). It is also because of his connections, his timing, his planning, his allies etc.

None of which is to say Harry is bad at Wizarding. I admit I do find it odd Harry is more like a Warlock in that he mostly excels at destructive, flashy magic (maybe a hint...) and that he struggles with things like veils, but everyone has different strengths too. Truth is, most Warlocks might only be good at one or two things. Maybe some mental magic, or maybe some evocation. But the fact he can do a little of everything is important. As he points out in Skin Game - not just anyone can open a Way. It takes years of practice, study and discipline. Hannah Ascher was considered White Council level in terms of raw power but her skills and abilities were highly limited. Being White Council is both a sign of the practitioners raw power AND of their level of skill and study (generally). So the fact Harry can do veils at all on top of the fact he can do everything else says a lot.

Maybe some Wizards would rinse Harry. But it all depends on why they were fighting, what preparation they had done, were they fighting fair or cheating, what equipment did they have, which allies were aiding them etc. There is no such thing as a truly equal fight (as any fighter will tell you) and you have to do whatever you have to in order to win. Anything approaching fair is too easy to lose, which is why most fighters will avoid them. But then again, some fights will happen because one or more combatants have little choice. Then, they just have to hope the enemy won't be as prepared or will make a mistake and they can take advantage.

So yes, sometimes Jim seems to de-power Harry and he doesn't always seem all that impressive. But most of the short stories from the perspectives of others seem to show Harry as terrifyingly powerful.

It's a complex issue but well worth discussing.

Conspiracy Theorist:
Harry has over the last few books since Turncoat in particular, become less like Eb, a brawler, and more like Rashid, a planner. He defeated Eb in a straight up fight, by pre-planning and playing in a calculated fashion on Eb’s weaknesses, especially his temper. The fact that Eb is surprised Harry deflected the boulder instead of destroying it should have made Eb wary, and alerted him to the fact that Harry viewed their confrontation very differently to him.

The point about Harry liking his props on things like tracking spells, is that Harry is well aware that the props act as a buffer against blowback should another wizard attack you through the spell, which is exactly what happened with Cowl and Little Chicago. Harry has even explained it a couple of times when he doesn’t have his props and is doing it all in his head at much greater risk, through visualisation. It’s not that Molly is better than Harry in this regard, she’s worse, she is sloppy and opens herself up to attack. She went Fae before going head to head with any other Wizard other than Corpsetaker, who similarly relied upon mental constructs, leaving herself vulnerable as Harry as demonstrated in Bocks in Dead Beat, despite her experience and Harry relative lack in this area.

Mira:

--- Quote ---
And then there is the argument of what dangerous or powerful really mean in terms of Wizards. The Merlin (Arthur Langtry) is both the most powerful Wizard in terms of magical muscle AND political and personal power. But it is well acknowledged that Ebeneezer is the most dangerous combat Wizard alive. He would be one of the few who might top Dresden for fights, and his kill count is clearly off the charts. But even he isn't the most dangerous Wizard. It is Rashid. And while Jim hasn't elaborated why that is, it isn't hard to tell. Rashid could cause more damage to the Universe than any of them, if he wanted to misuse/abuse his knowledge and position (not to mention if he simply failed or abandoned his duties). Beyond that, it is hinted between his age (and the knowledge and power that comes with it) and his possible (but likely) ability to gauge varying futures and their given probabilities it would be extremely difficult to out-think him. Not to mention what other tricks/skills he has. Every Wizard gives him major respect. As Jim has often shown and discussed - what really counts is knowledge, planning and execution.
--- End quote ---

Which Harry so clearly demonstrated in his brief battle with Eb.  Harry knew he was out gunned, even without the Black Staff, Eb has a couple of hundred years or more of experience on him, that counts, a wizard never stops learning.  So what did Harry do?  Had a double fight him to insure he'd survive to fight another day.  Pre-planning, he used brains, not muscle.

--- Quote ---None of which is to say Harry is bad at Wizarding. I admit I do find it odd Harry is more like a Warlock in that he mostly excels at destructive, flashy magic (maybe a hint...) and that he struggles with things like veils, but everyone has different strengths too. Truth is, most Warlocks might only be good at one or two things. Maybe some mental magic, or maybe some evocation. But the fact he can do a little of everything is important. As he points out in Skin Game - not just anyone can open a Way. It takes years of practice, study and discipline. Hannah Ascher was considered White Council level in terms of raw power but her skills and abilities were highly limited. Being White Council is both a sign of the practitioners raw power AND of their level of skill and study (generally). So the fact Harry can do veils at all on top of the fact he can do everything else says a lot.
--- End quote ---
A wizard never stops learning, while he was piss poor at it in Storm Front, now he can do a respectable one.  We forget that Harry was an apprentice drop out.  His first master, Justin was very selective in what he taught him because eventually he wanted to use him.  His second master, Eb had to teach the ethics that Justin never taught him.  These ethics were vital to Harry keeping his head under the Doom.  Also Harry admittedly was lazy in his youth, like a lot of bright kids, he did what came easy and didn't apply himself to study skills that took more work to be decent at.  When he took on Molly he learned the nature of veils from her natural ability to do them.  He also became a better student so he could teach, thus greatly improved his own knowledge and skills as Eb predicted he would.

Conspiracy Theorist:
This is why Rashid is the most dangerous wizard, he has been pre-planning literally for centuries. If you decide to fight Rashid, you already lost 50 years ago, in Harry’s case before he was even born.

It’s interesting when Harry is seeking to reassure Maggie he not only goes on about how powerful he is, but that he is kinda smart.

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