The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
The Fomor already unleashed ... Battle Ground Chapters 1 & 2
vultur:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on September 07, 2020, 07:36:49 AM ---Perhaps not all of them. But not all of them are like Mab either. Not all the gods are mantles. Maybe not even most.
--- End quote ---
Presumably not. I don't think the Creator/TWG is a Mantle, and I don't think Ethniu is either.
But there's a WOJ about Mantles and the Greek gods etc. (the one with Hercules' Mantle passing to the Hulk and now existing "in people's minds and imaginations") which does kind of make me think that most of the "pantheon" gods are or have Mantles.
So I'd tend to think that Titans, capital-D Dragons, etc. are "natural" Immortals older than humanity, but "later-generation" / more 'human' gods (like the Tuatha de Danaan vs. the Fomor, or the Olympians vs. the Titans) are Mantle-based to at least some degree.
Harry calls the Tuatha 'proto-fae' but that would still be consistent with them being basically human-derived via Changelings... they may have been more like a Fae Court, not all capital-I Immortals, just the leaders.
And 'gods' may be a loose term anyway... Vadderung called the Lords of Outer Night & Red King "mostly retired gods" like himself but they didn't seem that immortal, they stayed dead and no Mantles passed on. They had that one 'crushing will' trick and otherwise they were just supercharged Red Court Vampires.
--- Quote ---Isn't this all that ever happens to power anyway?
--- End quote ---
Well, I meant dividing up the power among multiple successors (or combining the power of several beings into one) as opposed to the same beings continuing to exist but altering their form and roles.
Molly may be in a sense part of Hecate but I doubt she perceives herself as being essentially 'the same person' as Mab or Mother Winter or the Summer Queens.
Yuillegan:
I seem to remember that he was referring to the mantle of "Strongest" when discussing Hercules/Heracles.
I think people get a bit too hung up on the word "mantles". All it really refers to is packet of power and it's associated knowledge and responsibilities. I'd say that some beings inherited the power of other beings, but the price of that was the knowledge and responsibility that came with it. And perhaps the limitations as well. How they inherited the power and under what circumstances is quite varied but Vadderung suggests that it wasn't always willing - the whole theme of Halloween is about stealing and feeding and tricking etc. Some likely were sacrificed, willingly or otherwise, and some even chose to pass on much of their power to others. It seems the Fae were one vehicle for this. But I am sure there are others.
And it seems that the Lords of the Outer Night managed to take the power of older gods and supplant them - which I suspect was no accident. I also think it answers your question of why they weren't actual immortals; they weren't. But they had access to tremendous power which they squandered (and perhaps they were suppressed). I don't think they ever had Mantles as the power was never built up in such a package. I think due to their nature they took the power the only way they could: by feeding. I did find the LoON a bit underwhelming. But perhaps they were meant to be. I think finally we can start asking Jim bigger questions now he has expanded the universe a bit.
--- Quote ---Well, I meant dividing up the power among multiple successors (or combining the power of several beings into one) as opposed to the same beings continuing to exist but altering their form and roles.
Molly may be in a sense part of Hecate but I doubt she perceives herself as being essentially 'the same person' as Mab or Mother Winter or the Summer Queens.
--- End quote ---
Jim used the analogy of the three blind men and the elephant. I suspect that it goes a little something like that. We see three separate Queens, or six, but really they form a part of something greater. Maybe that was a being called Hecate. Maybe Hecate was a six-part being that was smaller that grew all six parts. Maybe Hecate herself was a smaller part of a greater whole. Perspective is everything.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: vultur on September 08, 2020, 04:32:34 AM ---No, *both* Mothers are Skuld and Atropos.
This question was asked ages ago ("if MW is Atropos and MS is Clotho, where's the third Fate") and Jim's response was that the model is off by 90 degrees.
So both Mothers = Atropos, both Queens = Lachesis, both Ladies = Clotho.
Yeah there have been lots of arguments about this stuff before.
But I think that WoJ about White Court feeding confirms that the Soul/Spirit distinction is both real and makes a huge difference (I think we knew that from GS, but that WoJ gives more parameters).
White Court feeding may affect the soul to some degree, but can't destroy it. When the White Court feeding kills someone, that's by exhaustion of life force, not destruction of soul... their afterlife isn't removed.
IMO this probably also means that when a Changeling Chooses Fae (or when Susan turns Rampire in Changes, etc.) the soul goes on to the afterlife and only spirit is left in the new being.
Now that doesn't mean no Fae have souls - Molly does. Other Mantle-bearing Fae might too, depending on whether they were Fae (or Changelings who Chose Fae) before they took up the Mantle.
--- End quote ---
both mothers are not atropos... Only one of the fates welds the snippers.
We actually know specifically per woj that's MW.. MS is a dead ringer for Clotho, she has NOTHING in common with atropos though..
The Fae clearly have soul worked into their existence, it's one of the reasons things like the spiders actually EXIST and leave bodies... Not sure what the WCVs have to do with it there... Mantles are not the same as hungers of course.
ClintACK:
"MS is a dead ringer for Clotho"
Could you elaborate on this?
I've always seen Clotho-Lachesis-Atropos described in the maiden-mother-hag model of the tripart-goddess. (Which is a model that's repeated in the two Fairy Courts in the DV with the Lady-Queen-Mother triple.)
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: ClintACK on September 08, 2020, 11:24:06 AM ---"MS is a dead ringer for Clotho"
Could you elaborate on this?
--- End quote ---
sure,
The easy things are in the actual books thematics, MW is the unmaker, also what Atropos' job is basically (we know per woj she welds the shears too). Since the courts exist in balance it makes sense that MS is the maker,(the rampant version of which produces those jars of viruses). These are not things they share under a mask either. MWs pointy objects and MS jars are each their own. They are also in line with the Clotho and Atropos line up.
Lachesis btw, can be noted in her absence by the presence of her Loom in MWs cottage in SK. Though it disappears later. Either because Jim decided it was in an incorrect spot, it revealed too much, or someone subsequently stole it I only guess at.
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