The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Cost to ignore Armor?
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on August 29, 2020, 04:31:57 PM ---Because it's not especially good.
Look at the numbers; it's usually just a normal stunt.
Bear in mind, the main benefit of Toughness is the extra stress boxes. The armour is not as big a deal.
--- End quote ---
I disagree. Without the armor, then an unarmed human could just punch to death a troll, racking up tiny stress hits round after round. With the armor, that kind of strategy is impossible.
--- Quote from: vultur on August 29, 2020, 06:38:08 PM ---I have three uses in mind for this:
- A power granted to Emissaries of certain beings of destruction, such as Surtur, who don't have nearly enough power to get the full Sword of the Cross ability
-A power belonging to certain demons, basically for the same reason + a bit of an intentional "parody" of the Sword ability
- A super-entropic Outsider attack
--- End quote ---
Any of those I might allow to reduce a toughness level on things they're specifically against, a la the Faerie sponsored magics, but a blanket 'get through armor' effect makes no sense to me and doesn't fit.
Say you have a wizard who's got Soulfire, by canon one of the rarest, strongest abilities a wizard can get, with a sponsor that's so powerful, that its low level agents could rend the planet by accident, with a huge refresh cost. The wizard spends extra refresh to boost his control and power, and an Armor:4 spell is easy.
And your dude with a -1 refresh power sponsored by an old and unworshipped power like Surtur can just ignore it?
Without doing any additional work?
Without doing any research to get around the defenses that the wizard spent several refresh for?
--- Quote ---Yeah, that's the inspiration. But this is a far weaker ability.
--- End quote ---
Not really. Nearly every monster type on Our World has armor of some sort, and they all require a catch to get around. Even Armor:1 can make a huge difference over the course of a fight, andn this removes it.
--- Quote ---Because they don't expect to fight a lot of things with Armor 3 or more? (Which is pretty much just Mythic Toughness or defensive Enchanted Items).
--- End quote ---
It's super useful even against Armor:1 and 2, which the vast majority of creatures have. You don't have to make sure you have an iron weapon against Faeries because you can just punch them. You don't have to worry about having holy items or ways of creating fire against Black Court, because you can just punch them.
You don't have to worry about doing any of the investigation and research that the Catch is built around, because for a measly -1 refresh, you can just bypass the strongest protections the setting offers.
--- Quote ---In most situations, this is weaker than a straightforward +2 stress. It just can be very good if you end up fighting someone like Ebenezer McCoy.
--- End quote ---
Here's the thing, though -- it's going to apply to almost every combat situation. Nearly every wizard PC or NPC I've ever seen packs armor. Nearly every supernatural creature in Our World has a toughness power. It's trivial to give goons things like flak jackets and such.
A character with this stunt is absolutely better in any combat situation than a character without it.
Sanctaphrax:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 31, 2020, 02:29:38 PM ---I disagree. Without the armor, then an unarmed human could just punch to death a troll, racking up tiny stress hits round after round. With the armor, that kind of strategy is impossible.
--- End quote ---
You can still do that right through the armour. It's only slightly harder.
And OW gives trolls only Inhuman Toughness, so this is actually half as effective as Claws or an applicable stunt.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 31, 2020, 02:29:38 PM ---You don't have to worry about doing any of the investigation and research that the Catch is built around, because for a measly -1 refresh, you can just bypass the strongest protections the setting offers.
--- End quote ---
Again, the extra stress boxes are more important than the armour. Catch is still relevant.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 31, 2020, 02:29:38 PM ---A character with this stunt is absolutely better in any combat situation than a character without it.
--- End quote ---
Yes, of course. That's what happens when you spend Refresh on combat stuff.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on August 31, 2020, 03:22:10 PM ---You can still do that right through the armour. It's only slightly harder.
And OW gives trolls only Inhuman Toughness, so this is actually half as effective as Claws or an applicable stunt.
--- End quote ---
Not "slightly" harder. Even Armor:1 presents a significant setback to damage dealing, and can lengthen a fight significantly on its own.
--- Quote ---Again, the extra stress boxes are more important than the armour. Catch is still relevant.
--- End quote ---
Very arguable. Extra stress boxes might increase the amount of damage they can take, but armor can negate damage entirely. In essence, this stunt takes a character who could not damage a supernatural creature at all without doing extra research and finding specific items, and makes them a character who can literally just punch everything to death without any extra time or effort spent, unless that thing has full immunity to damage.
Put it this way: Your standard issue Red Court Vampire can take 1-shift hits indefinitely without taking damage. A human in a fist-fight with one has very little chance of defeating them at all unless they consistently beat their defenses by a wide margin.
With this stunt, the human in a fist fight only has to land six one-shift hits to win. He doesn't have to go find holy water, or arm himself in any way.
--- Quote ---Yes, of course. That's what happens when you spend Refresh on combat stuff.
--- End quote ---
And -1 refresh is enough to straight up invalidate the defenses of a character who's had to spend far more refresh to be able to give themselves Armor:4?
A feet-in-the-water neophyte to Surtur is going to be able to punch straight through armor handcrafted by Mab's Right-Hand-Woman, that saw Harry Dresden get through an apocalyptic battle royale unscathed?
The only power that does anything close to this not only has a very restricted set of prerequisites, but also requires an additional fate point every scene it's active.
Now I'd be in favor of a stunt that can get around specific types of armor, or in specific situations. For instance, I had a player once who wanted a Rogue-ish character, so she came up with a stunt that let the character negate armor if he attacked from a successful ambush. I was fine with that, because it was narrowly tailored and made sense. She wasn't going to be simply negating armor in every single attack in every single combat just because.
Every ability needs some kind of in-story justification that makes sense. And the reasons that the various characters have armor is far too diverse to justify being able to get through all of them, in any situation, with any weapon (or even without one) with the same -1 refresh stunt.
Sanctaphrax:
Okay, let's back away from the details and try to look at the key disagreement.
Is your fundamental complaint not about mechanics but about the lore implications of the mechanics? If this Power was still 1 Refresh, but only showed up on high-Refresh beings of tremendous power, would it be acceptable to you?
vultur:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 31, 2020, 05:27:04 PM ---Not "slightly" harder. Even Armor:1 presents a significant setback to damage dealing, and can lengthen a fight significantly on its own.
--- End quote ---
Sure, but ignoring Armor:1 means 1 more stress per hit, whereas Claws or a +2 stress stunt means 2 more stress per hit.
Ignoring all Armor is only better than +2 stress per hit if you fight people with Armor:3+ more often than you fight people with Armor:1 or no Armor.
The issue is that Wizard or Crafter with Superb Lore who spent a ton of Item Slots to get an Armor:5, 5/session Enchanted Item, or even somebody like Eb who might have Armor:6 item (assuming he has Fantastic Lore).
--- Quote ---Put it this way: Your standard issue Red Court Vampire can take 1-shift hits indefinitely without taking damage.
--- End quote ---
A standard RCV from OW page 88 with Armor 1...
Compare this to the Lethal Weapon stunt and Claws.
If you hit with a margin of 0, this Power still does no stress, Lethal Weapon still does no stress (+1, -1 for Armor, so total 0), and Claws does 1 stress (+2, -1 for Armor).
If you hit with a margin of 3, this Power does 3 stress, Lethal Weapon does 3 stress (3 +1, -1 for Armor), and Claws does 4 stress (3 +2, -1 for Armor).
IE, this power is the same or weaker.
--- Quote ---The only power that does anything close to this not only has a very restricted set of prerequisites, but also requires an additional fate point every scene it's active.
--- End quote ---
ACAEBG does a lot more than this, and has a specific world role. And I don't know how optimal it actually is, cost-wise. Incite Emotion (Lasting, Potent) will be better than a Sword of the Cross against most foes, for the same Refresh cost (and no FP spent each time).
--- Quote ---Every ability needs some kind of in-story justification that makes sense.
--- End quote ---
Yes. But assuming there is one (I can see several), what is it worth mechanically?
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