The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Gifts -SPOILERS
Conspiracy Theorist:
yuillegan Yes as I have explained on other threads mortals can be infected but why bother, we already have free will, and most are not in a position to affect events. At best we make convenient disease vectors, and it is easier to whammy, bribe, threaten or blackmail a mortal to do your will. Nemesis is clearly limited by the number and type of beings it can influence, otherwise it would be everywhere.
Yuillegan:
I suggest rereading some of the WOJ on Choices and Reality. From the perspective of a mortal, choosing whether to do A or B or C might not seem like much most times but whether it's a big decision or not, all of them add up to create the reality we are in.
As I mentioned above, the passage in Ghost Story with the Angel of Death helps signify why mortals are so powerful.
The power Nemesis has if able to influence any of these decisions is huge.
You assume the only advantage Nemesis gives is the ability to give Free Will. But mortals being so weak in most ways could be far more easily tempted than immortals and the supernatural beings. If we look at the known mortal cases (Sells, Denton, Kravos) all of them received the power to change things. Mostly themselves, which is really what Nemesis does. But they believed the power it gave them allowed them to shape the world to their will. Sells had a lust for power born of feelings of greed and not having enough, Denton wanted to right the injustice he saw, Kravos wanted more magical might and vengeance. They all felt powerless, or not powerful enough anyway, and Nemesis (and it's agents) provided the means to more power. But as always, the cost was higher than they realised.
I agree Nemesis isn't and indeed cannot be everywhere (at least for now). It was my initial WAG way back when Cold Days first came out. But there are many reasons it could be limited. You only have to turn on the news to learn a bit about contagion transference. Perhaps there are only a small number of ways it can jump hosts. Perhaps it cannot survive in this reality for very long without a host. Perhaps it cannot even survive in a host indefinitely. Not to mention that likely there are beings and groups who would attempt to contain and destroy/expel it. Perhaps there is a limit to how far it can spread. And as we know, some beings are immune. Starborns, but also Archangels and likely other such beings.
In any case, Nemesis stands to gain a lot from infecting mortals. And the only known cases we have all have had significant effects on the series. Even if it wasn't obvious at the time.
Something else that's interesting is that Nemesis appears to be relatively new. But perhaps it is a being that has always been around and has returned.
vultur:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 17, 2020, 12:31:47 AM ---The Outside is inherently corrupting. The bit in chapter 12 about rubbing minds with things from the Outside explains this mostly. Only starborns are immune.
--- End quote ---
I don't know that that is really "corruption" though. It sounds more like mental damage/insanity from exposure to an Outsider mind. That wouldn't necessarily be Law-breaking corruption of the kind that drives a wizard to do more of the same...
I mean, it's certainly something that the White Council would have very good reason to prohibit, because powerful wizards going crazy is really bad news. But I'm not sure it is the same mechanism as e.g. Harry being tempted to kill with magic in the early books, where using black magic makes it easier to do more of the same.
--- Quote ---Conspiracy Theorist - Just to be clear we have in-text confirmation from Eb that mortals CAN be nemfected.
--- End quote ---
Eh, Outsider mental attack is different from Nemfection. We kind of already knew Harry was resistant to that from CD (when he stands up to He-Who-Walks-Before in mental combat and announces his Name).
I am not sure Eb even knows that Nemesis exists.
--- Quote ---This whole section implies that Nemesis can and indeed does infect mortals.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I think it's probably possible, because the Gatekeeper in CD wouldn't have had reason to be so cautious (and warn Harry to be very cautious) if everyone on the White Council was totally immune by virtue of being human.
But I think Nemesis mostly goes after Fae, because they are directly relevant to the Outsider conflict and because mortals don't need to be Nemfected to be tempted into summoning Outsiders or otherwise helping the Outsider cause.
--- Quote ---Regardless though, she still does plenty of bad stuff in Dead Beat.
--- End quote ---
Sure, but I think that's regular human evil justified as "for good ends" not magical corruption or Nemfection.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote ---I don't know that that is really "corruption" though. It sounds more like mental damage/insanity from exposure to an Outsider mind. That wouldn't necessarily be Law-breaking corruption of the kind that drives a wizard to do more of the same...
I mean, it's certainly something that the White Council would have very good reason to prohibit, because powerful wizards going crazy is really bad news. But I'm not sure it is the same mechanism as e.g. Harry being tempted to kill with magic in the early books, where using black magic makes it easier to do more of the same.
--- End quote ---
But wouldn't you say that it IS insane to continue to keep using black magic? In which case we are talking about the same thing? I agree that it may well be different things, that insanity isn't always necessarily malevolent in nature, but the Outsiders DO seem to be associated with all the worst kinds of dark magic Harry encounters. Every villain/person/being associated with Outsiders isn't just insane though, they almost always are evil. And often they were not before until they did.
I am not saying, and sorry if it wasn't clear, that dark magic corruption and Outsider corruption are the same. But perhaps there is more than one type of dark magic. Think 'chaotic' versus 'lawful' if that helps.
--- Quote ---Eh, Outsider mental attack is different from Nemfection. We kind of already knew Harry was resistant to that from CD (when he stands up to He-Who-Walks-Before in mental combat and announces his Name).
I am not sure Eb even knows that Nemesis exists.
--- End quote ---
Morgan knows about it...why wouldn't a Senior Council wizard? Knowledge and Power go hand in hand in the wizarding world especially. I'd bet money he does.
Anyway, if you read the passage again, Harry's conclusion is that Nemesis hasn't infected him because it can't (just as I said above). Occam's razor.
--- Quote ---Oh, I think it's probably possible, because the Gatekeeper in CD wouldn't have had reason to be so cautious (and warn Harry to be very cautious) if everyone on the White Council was totally immune by virtue of being human.
But I think Nemesis mostly goes after Fae, because they are directly relevant to the Outsider conflict and because mortals don't need to be Nemfected to be tempted into summoning Outsiders or otherwise helping the Outsider cause.
--- End quote ---
It's curious because on the one hand it seems like the Gatekeeper and others fear Harry might have gone dark side...and it even seems like the Gatekeeper wondered if Harry was infected. On the other hand, it seems like Harry cannot be infected, and Morgan's letter seems to imply that Harry can go far darker than merely Nemfected (almost as though being starborn might not actually be a good thing necessarily for mortals...the whole Destroyer thing).
I don't doubt Nemesis mostly goes for Fae, because they would be the ones it has most contact with. However, I suspect they are hardly the real prize. We still don't know a lot about Nemesis and it's functions and goals beyond trying to infect others and apparently open the gates from the Inside. But even supernatural beings can be tempted. Just look at Lord Raith. So I suspect Nemesis infect key people that cannot otherwise be tempted. It almost seems tactical.
--- Quote ---Sure, but I think that's regular human evil justified as "for good ends" not magical corruption or Nemfection.
--- End quote ---
I agree. I wasn't saying it was a sign of dark magic taint or nemfection. Was merely saying that her one good act hardly qualifies her as mostly good by nature and so she isn't the best candidate for nemfection based on the idea that nemfection tends to have one act against their true nature. There are better reasons as to why she may be infected, if she is at all.
vultur:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 18, 2020, 03:30:33 AM ---But wouldn't you say that it IS insane to continue to keep using black magic?
--- End quote ---
No, at least not in the usual sense of "insane". Evil, yes (assuming we're not counting "gray-area" uses that aren't necessarily evil), but not necessarily insane.
I mean, it's usually irrational. For some random sorcerer on the Sells or Kravos level, if they ever really get anywhere, the Wardens will eventually find out and kill them.
But for someone like Cowl, not so sure.
--- Quote --- Every villain/person/being associated with Outsiders isn't just insane though, they almost always are evil. And often they were not before until they did.
--- End quote ---
I think anyone who knowingly works with Outsiders pretty much has to be evil, given how destructive they are.
--- Quote ---Morgan knows about it...why wouldn't a Senior Council wizard?
--- End quote ---
Good point.
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