The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
vultur:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on September 03, 2020, 02:11:19 AM ---Actually, the White Council has significant physical assets.
--- End quote ---
Sure, but they all are within some nation or other. The White Council wouldn't have a voice in the UN, and by international law they'd ultimately be subject to regular nations. They don't have an NN territory inaccessible to vanilla mortals like the various Fae nations, and the Laws prevent them from just taking over some nation as a "safe zone" by mind-controlling its leadership as the White Court could do.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on September 03, 2020, 02:11:19 AM ---As for the Warlock execution thing...I don't think they would mind. I think they would prefer if their own authorities did it, and I suspect the White Council wouldn't object.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I didn't really mean so much opposition to executing warlocks in principle (even nations and US states that don't have the death penalty might change the law if they found out about e.g. what Kemmler did).
More that nations wouldn't allow the White Council to perform executions outside the existing legal system, and I'm not sure it would be practical/workable to keep warlocks imprisoned for long enough to go through the legal system -- some of the weaker/less skilled ones, maybe, but not anybody who could get to the NN, or mind-control people, etc. without ritual gear. Even Kravos, who wasn't that powerful or skilled, was able to set up the whole Nightmare thing from prison.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: vultur on September 03, 2020, 03:33:54 AM ---Sure, but they all are within some nation or other. The White Council wouldn't have a voice in the UN, and by international law they'd ultimately be subject to regular nations. They don't have an NN territory inaccessible to vanilla mortals like the various Fae nations, and the Laws prevent them from just taking over some nation as a "safe zone" by mind-controlling its leadership as the White Court could do.
--- End quote ---
Hah! International law only really applies to the smaller nations. The big nations just do as they please. And no court could really enforce their justice. The whole problem is that the entire organization of the White Council is composed of too many disparate nations and is too spread out. One of the main reasons why the White Council stays out of politics in the first place. I am sure they could disappear if they needed to. How do you think they survived the Inquisition?
--- Quote from: vultur on September 03, 2020, 03:33:54 AM ---Yeah, I didn't really mean so much opposition to executing warlocks in principle (even nations and US states that don't have the death penalty might change the law if they found out about e.g. what Kemmler did).
More that nations wouldn't allow the White Council to perform executions outside the existing legal system, and I'm not sure it would be practical/workable to keep warlocks imprisoned for long enough to go through the legal system -- some of the weaker/less skilled ones, maybe, but not anybody who could get to the NN, or mind-control people, etc. without ritual gear. Even Kravos, who wasn't that powerful or skilled, was able to set up the whole Nightmare thing from prison.
--- End quote ---
I doubt the states that oppose the death penalty would change. The principles of the argument haven't changed, just the targets. But you never know. The real question is would they even be able to tell the White Council was executing warlocks in the first place. But you are right, the current justice system in any country isn't sophisticated or strong enough really to contain/control warlocks.
vultur:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on September 03, 2020, 03:52:46 AM ---I am sure they could disappear if they needed to. How do you think they survived the Inquisition?
--- End quote ---
No way to know, we really don't know how that worked in the DV. (The implication, IIRC, is that it was more heavily involved in witch trials than the RL Inquisition.) But the Inquisition was pretty geographically limited, even relative to the 'known world' of that era (basically Europe and the Mediterranean). Certainly it had no power in the Eastern Orthodox or Islamic areas, and I think it was usually much more localized than that.
--- Quote ---I doubt the states that oppose the death penalty would change. The principles of the argument haven't changed, just the targets.
--- End quote ---
I don't know... I think the picture changes a lot if you can no longer rely on prisons to keep people away from the general population, because warlocks can just use illusions/mind-bending to escape or walk out through the NN or something (or if imprisoned warlocks can still do harm remotely through something like Kravos' Nightmare ritual or demon summoning or...)
ClintACK:
Given the existence of a perfect magical prison, I'd imagine that arguments against the death penalty would be on stronger ground. We could even see the White Council shift to using Demonreach instead of decapitation.
But even for non-capital offenses, it's hard to imagine mortal governments just handing over magical criminals for trial and punishment in an entirely independent system of government. That works fine right now, when those magical criminals and independent courts officially don't exist, but after?
And the merging of magical justice into mortal justice comes with all kinds of pitfalls. Could mortal Outsider-cultists sue the White Council and demand federal protection of their religious freedoms? If a federal judge issues a writ of habeas corpus demanding the production in court of some eldritch horror from the lower cells... what happens?
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: vultur on September 03, 2020, 04:09:35 AM ---No way to know, we really don't know how that worked in the DV. (The implication, IIRC, is that it was more heavily involved in witch trials than the RL Inquisition.) But the Inquisition was pretty geographically limited, even relative to the 'known world' of that era (basically Europe and the Mediterranean). Certainly it had no power in the Eastern Orthodox or Islamic areas, and I think it was usually much more localized than that.
--- End quote ---
True enough, Jim hasn't been that specific. But that is exactly it: the geography is a huge limit on the power to take on the White Council. For instance, what if the White Council decided to shelter in China or Russia? What then would the US or the UK etc do? Go to war? Or the reverse, what if they decided to take shelter from Russia in the USA? Perhaps there is a scenario where each nation individually decides to persecute the supernatural (whilst simultaneously fighting off whatever supernatural nations are attacking them, along with any mortal nations as well). Some nations might be more successful than others but almost all would attempt to harness some of this "new" power and knowledge. No, the real success would always be from nations that allied with the "friendly" supernaturals like the White Council and Vadderung and Knights of the Cross.
--- Quote from: vultur on September 03, 2020, 04:09:35 AM ---I don't know... I think the picture changes a lot if you can no longer rely on prisons to keep people away from the general population, because warlocks can just use illusions/mind-bending to escape or walk out through the NN or something (or if imprisoned warlocks can still do harm remotely through something like Kravos' Nightmare ritual or demon summoning or...)
--- End quote ---
A little perhaps, assuming they had the time to actually change the law. If they were under assault it might be different. But ClintACK is right, it is a very complicated issue. More likely vigilante justice would increase. Assuming these governments managed to stay together at all.
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