Author Topic: Chapter 5 Drop  (Read 1244 times)

Offline Walter the skull

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2020, 10:47:31 PM »
Harry Should lure him out to demon reach and put him jail. 

As for Murphy, I think she could become a valkyrie or an einherjar.  She turned down Gard's offer she was healthy, but she isn't any more.  Also she links Marcone and Monoc together, which is true, but just the tip of the ice berg.  Maybe Harry will tell that she's all ready fought with Vaderung twice.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 10:53:55 PM by Walter the skull »

Offline knightedbishop

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2020, 11:46:22 PM »
I don’t think Marcone is behind this. He accepted the weregild from Harry with the agreement that he would leave the heist gang alone, Murphy included. Marcone is a crook, but he is an honorable crook and he doesn’t go back on his word. And even if he was inclined to, I think he is recognizes that people who go back on their word in the supernatural world are not looked on kindly.

I would have a harder time figuring out who might not have bought Rudolph. He’s a scumbag with naked ambition and poor impulse control. Whoever is pulling his strings, I doubt he even knows their true identity. Anyone using Rudolph would not see him as anything more than an expendable tool.

I think Murphy dying and coming back as an Einherjar sounds likely. Like the faerie mantles, she has been trained and built a relationship with the Einherjar over time. I can see her dying heroically, and Gard being there to escort her to Valhalla. She’ll be out of the picture for a while, and then return for the BAT, Murphy the White to turn the tide.

Offline Dina

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2020, 12:00:13 AM »
I think Bob and Butters are going to do some developments in medicine for wizards  :D
I don't think that is what will "save" Murph, but I think they will do it anyway. I agree Murphy will become a Valkyrie or something like that.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Mira

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2020, 12:17:49 AM »
Quote

I also don't see Jim killing her off, because that also would be deeply disrespectful to the character ("Outlived her utility? Off she goes, for a bigger guilt trip for Harry!") and this isn't the style of writing Jim uses. Although I still suspect that employment with Vadderung may be in her future, to pay off the set-up in Ghost Story.

Depends on the story line, would it be more disrespectful to kill off Murphy than it was to kill off Susan or even Morgan?  If she dies, it all depends on the context of her death, heroic saving Harry and having a lot to do with saving the world?  Good death..  And sadly characters do outlive their utility and have to move on, and that doesn't mean killing them off. 

Online Arjan

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2020, 01:38:24 AM »
This chapter made me think about something we saw, or thought we saw, in the trailer; Harry and Lara starting to get it on.  Then we saw Warden Ramirez start to accuse Harry of being under Lara's influence.  At least that's what we're supposed to think.  There are alternate explanations for both scenes.  The scene with Harry and Lara could be an illusion or even a dream scene.  Ramirez could be referring to something else besides the short scene we saw with Harry and Lara.

However, if Lara does put her her arms around Harry's neck and if they kiss or touch skin in any way, what does it say if Lara doesn't get burned the way her cousin Madeline did when she was forced to touch Justine?  Harry and Murphy aren't truly in love, or does the Winter Knight's mantel deaden true love?  Then again, maybe Lara will get burned and we just didn't see it in the trailer.  What do you think?
Lara has more control than Madeline or Thomas with Justine as we saw in White Night. She only got burned at the end when she started to feed but they shared a kiss before that. Thomas explained it in turn coat.
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Offline TrueMonk

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2020, 03:13:37 AM »
I hope Jim is going to give us the satisfaction of a revenge. I actually would like to see Rudolh humiliated, scared, instead of physically hurt. For example, have Eb soulgazing him  :)

I had not thought about that, but I guess that would be a really horrible thing to experience. The more I think about it the worse I think it would be. A good candidate for a Rudolph experience

I think there is actually som e progression in Harrys self criticism. Here it feels like, yes, he does feel bad, but he is also conscious about it not really being his fault. That is a pretty big step forward from earlier I think.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2020, 03:53:03 AM »
Harry should have fed Rudolf to the Ick. I'm tired of the character.

Agreed. I know Jim likes to add problems to Harry's life, and this is an excellent way to do it but Rudolph is seriously one-dimensional. Has zero redeeming qualities. He is almost cartoonish. I would far prefer if he had developed more. If he at least had no redeeming features he could at least have some more understandable ones.

Secondly, I think it is clear this police scrutiny is a misdirect. Harry and Murphy (unless I am much mistaken) have never discussed Rudy being on Marcone's payroll. Jim has conveniently shoved that in so that Harry will head for Marcone. But Marcone is the least likely person to do it. Harry already paid the weregild for the murdered employee, and he wanted Harry to break into the vault so he isn't going to go after him for that. He knows Harry is chaos made manifest and the last thing he would want when holding (perhaps career defining) summit is for it to go tits up. So he isn't likely to be the one antagonizing Dresden. But someone wants them to be upset with each other.

Someone is well aware of Harry's animosity with Marcone, and Harry's incredibly predictable overreaction to having a woman (particularly a lover but in general a close female) threatened. Beyond that, Marcone has made a lot of enemies (not merely mortal ones either) who are especially keen for the king to fall. Likely, this is part of the same plot that Ebenezer just a chapter before hand just warned Harry about. The sucker punch is coming and all this is to keep Harry distracted.

I would say this is all Black Council/the Circle influenced. Maybe it's the Fomor acting on their behalf, perhaps it's someone else. But behind it all it smells like the Black Council.

Nicodemus does have a lot to gain...but to be honest he wouldn't rely on the mortal authorities. He would just send a hitter. Much more his style. This feels a lot more like Mavra or Lara or even the White Council pulling strings. But you can bet it is related to the impending vote to remove him as a wizard AND to the imminent peace talks.

If I were gunning for Harry, I would attack him in all his weak spots all at once (assuming I had the resources). Go after Thomas, Maggie, Eb, The Carpenters, Murphy, all his usual allies. And attack in multiple ways. Use the legal system, send hit men, attack the Council etc. Divide and conquer tactics. Put so much on Harry's plate that he is bound to lose a few loved ones and allies. Hit Demonreach and the Gates, do whatever it takes. All the while, you set up an ace in the hole. An unstoppable assault that Harry won't see until it's too late. Like an invading army being prepared. You want to keep him off balance and tired so that he misses things. So that he can't catch his breath. You want his allies so under pressure they can't aid him. You want him worried. And during all this, you set things up so that his allies start distrusting each other, perhaps even him and vice versa.

Which is precisely what the MO of the Black Court is, or roundabouts. Harry is getting better at predicting the sucker punch now (perhaps he has cottoned onto his cruel god Butcher's methods). But I think he won't this time. I think this is all about to go sideways.

On an unrelated note, while I did enjoy this chapter I did have some issues with it but also some positives:
1. I like that Harry can cook now. He mostly seemed to eat takeout and frozen food before hand. Small victories!

2. Harry's constant need to be chivalrous isn't endearing anymore. It's sort of weird. I like that he was respectful and careful of his lover. Kudos to Jim for chucking that in. But, treating Murphy like she is some ceramic doll is just bad. She is old enough to know what she likes and what she can take. Checking in is very healthy, but listening is important too. It's fine for him to not be comfortable with hurting her, as a gut reaction. But I just found the whole scene odd.

3. On that topic, we have been waiting bloody years for this and the most we get is PG-13. Step it up Butcher! Especially if she is about to die...

4. Loved the humor. We haven't had enough of that in recent books. It wasn't necessarily a laugh out loud chapter but I enjoyed the interactions.

5. Harry's answer when Murphy asked if she could be healed was...crap. Utter trash. He might not know how but there are Wizards who know a LOT more. Like his friend Listens-to-Wind. Worse than that, as a person who just magically fixed his back injury, it was more than rude that he didn't offer to try and look for a solution. He just casually dismissed it. Nope, no cure. Only sell your soul. What rubbish. When Susan became a half-vampire he spent YEARS looking for a cure. Does Murphy have to get cancer or bitten by a vampire for Dresden to pull his finger out? It's fine to be realistic (although I would argue he was being pessimistic) but why doesn't he try harder? This isn't the old Dresden. Not to mention, WHY is it that magic is so bad a healing? Harry has bent gravity, manipulates elemental forces, breaks into minds and souls etc. He can even cross space-time and travel across the world like walking through a door (followed by some confusing and sometimes semi-dangerous terrain). But knitting skin and bone together is hard? Repairing ligaments is hard? I get that JB needs Murphy to be injured for the story. But the reasons stated for healing being tricky have NEVER been very convincing. I am not sure why either. It isn't hard to work into a relatively hard magic premise. The things modern science can do now is already incredible. I would expect wizards to at least be that good, if not better. But Harry won't look anyway.

6. I love the realness of the character interactions. Something Butcher does very, VERY well. That's what draws you in, makes it real. The stuff about how family interactions are difficult for Dresden is particularly good, as he isn't used to it yet. The big dynamic is much harder when you have skin in the game.

7. Why did Murphy's doctor violate patient confidentiality? She could get sued and even lose her licence. Seems very weird to me.

8. On coming out of the vault Harry says they are blurry and translucent. They shouldn't be recognizable on camera. And what happened to camera's not working near Dresden? Or has magic decided it can work around him now?

9. They don't have to use the normal system to make this investigation go away. They could pull strings of their own. But even if they want to go the mundane route, those cops don't have EVIDENCE. Which you need. To convict.

10. They probably need to accept they are no longer regular humans. They don't work within regular boundaries. And they can ill afford to go to prison. Harry has all the tools he needs to convince them of the supernatural or make their case fall apart, or convince the cops to back off. But despite all that, I love the additional set up. More pressure for Harry!


Offline SerScot

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2020, 03:58:36 AM »
Didn’t the chapter where Eb warned Harry they were trying to kick him off the White Council say he’d been forbidden to wear the grey cloak of a Warden?  If so, the trailer has him in a Warden’s cloak several times.  Does this mean the White Council part of the plot gets resolved early?
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2020, 04:04:00 AM »
Not that I read. Just said they intend to strip him of his membership. Harry responds that first they bully him into wearing the cloak, now they want him out.

Offline Mira

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2020, 04:43:31 AM »
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1. I like that Harry can cook now. He mostly seemed to eat takeout and frozen food before hand. Small victories!

He isn't eating just for him now, he has a little growing mouth to feed..  Charity would tear him apart if he fed little Maggie on takeout and prefab frozen food.
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5. Harry's answer when Murphy asked if she could be healed was...crap. Utter trash. He might not know how but there are Wizards who know a LOT more. Like his friend Listens-to-Wind. Worse than that, as a person who just magically fixed his back injury, it was more than rude that he didn't offer to try and look for a solution. He just casually dismissed it. Nope, no cure. Only sell your soul. What rubbish. When Susan became a half-vampire he spent YEARS looking for a cure. Does Murphy have to get cancer or bitten by a vampire for Dresden to pull his finger out? It's fine to be realistic (although I would argue he was being pessimistic) but why doesn't he try harder? This isn't the old Dresden. Not to mention, WHY is it that magic is so bad a healing? Harry has bent gravity, manipulates elemental forces, breaks into minds and souls etc. He can even cross space-time and travel across the world like walking through a door (followed by some confusing and sometimes semi-dangerous terrain). But knitting skin and bone together is hard? Repairing ligaments is hard? I get that JB needs Murphy to be injured for the story. But the reasons stated for healing being tricky have NEVER been very convincing. I am not sure why either. It isn't hard to work into a relatively hard magic premise. The things modern science can do now is already incredible. I would expect wizards to at least be that good, if not better. But Harry won't look anyway.

But Murphy is in her forties now, ligaments and bone do not heal as quickly and easily as they once did.  Parts also wear out, Murphy worked her joins hard over the years, cartilage wears away, knees
can be replaced, true..  I play pickle ball with friends who've had them replaced.. But the years cannot be replaced,  a torn up knee has ruined may a pro career.
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7. Why did Murphy's doctor violate patient confidentiality? She could get sued and even lose her licence. Seems very weird to me.

Agreed, maybe with a warrant?  Most likely they never asked the doctor.. They weren't there on police business either, they either hacked the records from the computer or broke in to steal them on someone else's behalf.
Quote
8. On coming out of the vault Harry says they are blurry and translucent. They shouldn't be recognizable on camera. And what happened to camera's not working near Dresden? Or has magic decided it can work around him now?

Because there were others in on the job, taking pictures for insurance, it is all about blackmail. 
Quote
9. They don't have to use the normal system to make this investigation go away. They could pull strings of their own. But even if they want to go the mundane route, those cops don't have EVIDENCE. Which you need. To convict.
They weren't there on police business, after he recovers from the glow of sex Harry will figure that out.

Offline Dina

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2020, 05:02:43 AM »
@Yuillegan, I agree with 5, that is why I mentioned Butters and Bob. I really believe that Harry needs to try harder, for instance, as you say, asking LTW but I would also asked other people. For example, I would ask Molly. Perhaps Murphy can make a deal with Molly, there is no need to sell the soul, there are other prices that can be paid, perhaps by Harry. There is also the Shroud. It did not save the comatose girl but perhaps it can do something with broken legs.
And did Harry at least asked Bonea? Alfred (as far as we know, there could be magical herbs in Demonrach)? I am not saying a total cure but perhaps something to help her?
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline magnuskn

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2020, 05:44:06 AM »
Depends on the story line, would it be more disrespectful to kill off Murphy than it was to kill off Susan or even Morgan?  If she dies, it all depends on the context of her death, heroic saving Harry and having a lot to do with saving the world?  Good death..  And sadly characters do outlive their utility and have to move on, and that doesn't mean killing them off.

I mean, just as she and Harry are really getting together? This would be so cliché that I just can't believe Jim would do it. Not to mention his little tweet from a few years ago, where he said that he just wrote Murphy's funeral. There's this little trope where writers troll their audience when they set up the expectation that a cliché would happen and then subvert that expectation. I strongly feel that this is one of those times.

We'll know in two weeks, anyway.

Online Arjan

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2020, 06:48:41 AM »
I see no reason to take that tweet necessarily literal. “It’s your funeral” is a well known idiom.

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Offline magical_liopleurodon

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2020, 06:58:16 AM »
I mean, just as she and Harry are really getting together? This would be so cliché that I just can't believe Jim would do it. Not to mention his little tweet from a few years ago, where he said that he just wrote Murphy's funeral. There's this little trope where writers troll their audience when they set up the expectation that a cliché would happen and then subvert that expectation. I strongly feel that this is one of those times.

We'll know in two weeks, anyway.

Jim is all about the cliches, haha

Offline Mira

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Re: Chapter 5 Drop
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2020, 10:41:18 AM »
I mean, just as she and Harry are really getting together? This would be so cliché that I just can't believe Jim would do it. Not to mention his little tweet from a few years ago, where he said that he just wrote Murphy's funeral. There's this little trope where writers troll their audience when they set up the expectation that a cliché would happen and then subvert that expectation. I strongly feel that this is one of those times.

We'll know in two weeks, anyway.

  He has done it before, so who knows?  All I am saying that if she dies and it fits the story line
it is no more disrespectful that when Susan died.  Now I want to know, is he
having unprotected sex yet again? 

I don't think there are any magical wizard cures for Murphy.  LTW's medical degrees are all from
vanilla medical schools if I remember correctly.  Wizards heal more quickly because of their make up not because of any magical medicine.