The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Project Gutenberg
Yuillegan:
I am not sure how many of you have read any Gutenberg (it can be a bit much as the language is often written phonetically rather than correctly, not to mention using archaic words and phrases) but it does provide a few interesting bits.
The Faeries are considered to be former Angels but chose not to pick a side in the War in Heaven and so were not banished to Hell, but were expelled from Heaven.
There are also these curious tall round towers, like Lighthouses, always near Churches. They seem to have been used and made by the Druids and have associations with fire. Also, in some cases Angels built them overnight on the command of Saints. Reminds me a lot of the Tower on Demonreach.
Lastly, a funny thing is that David MacAnally Jr is the translator/curator. Not sure how relevant it is but I found it an amusing coincidence nonetheless.
Bad Alias:
I spent a few hours one night trying to figure out where the association of wizards with towers came from. It was mostly theories about why a wizard would want or end up in a tower. Some people concluded it was just another thing that was in D&D and became widespread that way.
Though neither saints or druids are precisely the same thing as a wizard, this could be a big source for "magic guy" has a tower.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 10, 2020, 03:04:15 PM --- I spent a few hours one night trying to figure out where the association of wizards with towers came from. It was mostly theories about why a wizard would want or end up in a tower. Some people concluded it was just another thing that was in D&D and became widespread that way.
--- End quote ---
There's the scholastic aspect, long study. There's the "study the skies" element... and just getting CLOSER to the skies. Towers are great for all sorts of isolation. Also being "above" everyone else: symbolic superiority.
Before D&D there was Orthanc (and Barad-dur, though we don't see much detail); and various "Minas this" and "Minas that" ("minas" being "tower") -- e.g. Minas Morgul where the Witch King dwelt. I'm pretty sure Jack Vance wrote some wizard-in-a-tower tropes, and that's another of D&D's sourcematter. REH/Conan put some wizards in towers.
The "ivory tower" imagery (going back to "scholasticism") is I think over a century old.
But going back even further, I think there's a classic "wizard in tower" in Spenser's Faerie Queene.
It's also worth noting that "tower" in many of the older sources wouldn't refer to a singular standalone structure, e.g. "the Tower of London" is an entire castle, really -- Her Majesty's Royal Palace and Fortress of the Tower of London. Certainly many of Tolkien's "Minas" sites were entire castles, or even cities!
In the end, yeah: in fantasy literature & RPG'ish use, I think Tolkien and D&D are our proximate culprits. I don't think Spenser and the evolutionary use of language enter much into it... ;)
g33k:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on June 10, 2020, 05:54:58 AM --- ... The Faeries are considered to be former Angels but chose not to pick a side in the War in Heaven and so were not banished to Hell, but were expelled from Heaven ...
--- End quote ---
I think Jim has cast other entities in this role.
His faeries seem to be mortal-origin, at least in part. I guess that doesn't preclude being mortal/angel hybrids, though...
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on June 10, 2020, 05:54:58 AM --- ... Also, in some cases Angels built them overnight on the command of Saints. Reminds me a lot of the Tower on Demonreach ...
--- End quote ---
That's a fascinating discovery in lore!
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on June 10, 2020, 05:54:58 AM --- ... Lastly, a funny thing is that David MacAnally Jr is the translator/curator. Not sure how relevant it is but I found it an amusing coincidence nonetheless.
--- End quote ---
I think it's just an amusing coincidence, as you say. I'm almost certain I recall a WoJ saying MacAnally was named for a good friend of Jim's, going back to his high-school days, who "liked his drink."
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: g33k on June 10, 2020, 06:01:08 PM ---There's the scholastic aspect, long study. There's the "study the skies" element... and just getting CLOSER to the skies. Towers are great for all sorts of isolation. Also being "above" everyone else: symbolic superiority.
Before D&D there was Orthanc (and Barad-dur, though we don't see much detail); and various "Minas this" and "Minas that" ("minas" being "tower") -- e.g. Minas Morgul where the Witch King dwelt. I'm pretty sure Jack Vance wrote some wizard-in-a-tower tropes, and that's another of D&D's sourcematter. REH/Conan put some wizards in towers.
The "ivory tower" imagery (going back to "scholasticism") is I think over a century old.
But going back even further, I think there's a classic "wizard in tower" in Spenser's Faerie Queene.
It's also worth noting that "tower" in many of the older sources wouldn't refer to a singular standalone structure, e.g. "the Tower of London" is an entire castle, really -- Her Majesty's Royal Palace and Fortress of the Tower of London. Certainly many of Tolkien's "Minas" sites were entire castles, or even cities!
In the end, yeah: in fantasy literature & RPG'ish use, I think Tolkien and D&D are our proximate culprits. I don't think Spenser and the evolutionary use of language enter much into it... ;)
--- End quote ---
Except for the paragraph about towers not necessarily being a tower, the possible Spenser reference, and practical considerations of why basically anyone would live in a tower, that's pretty much what I got after a few hours of looking. That surprised me because I can usually find a real authoritative answer when I have a "where did x come from" question. Sometimes the authoritative answer is "no one knows," "it's either this or that," or "no one knows, but it's largely believed/said/etc. it comes from y."
I think my specific question was actually what's the literary reason for the wizard's tower. Then I found out it wasn't really a trope until D&D popularized the idea, probably because Tolkien had some of his wizards associated with some of his towers. As the trope was new, and many professional literary analysis types think fantasy is beneath contempt, there isn't enough out there for me to dig it up without serious effort.
@Yuillegan: I have heard various things like faeries being demon-like or associated with hell. I've always heard, "the monks changed it because if it's supernatural and not in the Bible, then it's of the Devil" as the reason for categorizing faeries as demonic/servants of hell. I'm not sure if I've come across the specific one about them being "in between" demons and angels. Fallen but not condemned angels, if you will. That one thing could be a very interesting idea to build a fantasy setting around.
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