The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Thoughts on Simon Petrovich being Cowl
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on May 17, 2020, 05:16:29 AM ---Before using DB to judge Cowl's strength, remember that the all the necromancers were using mostly physical attacks on one another because they were conserving or had expended their magical tanks. That could be the reason Cowl didn't seem as strong as we would expect if he is secretly a member of the Senior Council.
Jim has said that Rashid is the most dangerous wizard, and I think he said the Merlin is the most powerful. Harry definitely has. If Eb is the most anything, it's probably strongest. As in he's got the biggest firehouse as Harry puts it. The Merlin would have to have enough skill or knowledge to outclass Eb to make him more powerful. In that little snippet from PT, Harry said that Eb was the most feared wizard.
--- End quote ---
That was for duels with each other. Cowl had zero issue attacking Harry with magic. Cowl also felt no need to practice his swordplay or show off his necromancy. As far as I am aware Cowl didn't attack them and they didn't attack him. They might even have been scared of him - Corpsetaker certainly respected his powers, and Corpsetaker is no slouch. But even if they were not that wasn't really the reason they avoided attacking. They didn't attack with magic as it was hypothesised by Harry they would need to use all their concentration to control their undead. Which doesn't make a lot of sense because the drummer does that bit, and the magic is expended into the construct as a single act (not a continous flow, as far as I am aware). Cowl was likely saving his power to ruin the city etc, and probably didn't choose a throwdown so that he didn't cop an injury that would have ruined his chances at completing the Darkhallow. But in saying that, I doubt it would have cost much energy for a Senior Council-level wizard to destroy Harry and still do everything. If you imagine Cowl is Eb (hypothetically - and I don't for a second think he is), he would have blown through Dresden easily. And then proabably the other two.
The other thing to consider is that neither Corpsetaker nor Grevane are mentioned to be Senior Council-level. Despite their advanced age and suite of powers, Harry doesn't consider them in the same league. Terrifying and mad, yes. But not on the same level. If Cowl was...don't you think he would have dealt with them sooner? I have no issue believing if Cowl was Eb he would have slaughtered them. Same with most of the others. Hell, I think Luccio quite possibly would have beaten them if she hadn't had her mind invaded. Both Grevane and Corpsetaker seem to be closer to Morgan and Luccio in power levels. Which makes sense, as Grevane is only slightly older than Luccio. Harder to know with the Corpsetaker (although I would say a bit younger - but that's just a hunch).
I mostly agree with what you're saying about Langtry, Rashid and Eb. As Jim has stated before - power isn't a straight line thing. In terms of who would win a slugfest though...I think the money is mostly on Eb. Eb can break the rules and has no magical or wizard-law consequences, and he probably has the most fight titles under his belt. Most dangerous to life on Earth is most assuredly Rashid. He is also probably like Marcone, Kincaid, Uriel, Vadderung or Mab in that he prefers to use knowledge and leverage with zero ego to take down his foes rather than straight-up grudge matches. And he can see a lot more of the future than probably any other wizard. Langtry likely has the biggest tank of magic, perhaps the most general magical knowledge and refined skills (he has the strongest wards apparently) and certainly is the most politcally and likely economically powerful wizard in the world - any one of which would make him a hell of an opponent. Worth mentioning also that Langtry managed to stop a Mistfiend spreading with pure will while simultaneously coordinating a room full of wizards and creating an effective battle plan and evacuation plan (and pursuit plan of Peabody) in a few miliseconds. Langtry is the Merlin for a reason. Who would beat who would depend on so many different factors it's almost impossible to guess though.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 17, 2020, 07:02:48 AM ---I think Cowl is someone who is actually alive at this moment. About any powerful council member is a better candidate than Simon or Justin.
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I don't know if that's a fair guess. Why do you think an active "alive" member is a better candidate than a dead one?
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 17, 2020, 07:02:48 AM ---Outsiders don’t work for you. You may be able to make them do your bidding in the short run because they need mortal wizards to get here but they work for themselves. They also make you go mad if you associate too closely with them and you start serving their purpose even if you think you are not. Cowl is on that route as was Peabody.
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Well, we don't know that. But you're probably right. We just haven't seen enough of them to really make any real assumptions. The one thing they do apart from try and kill everything is recruit. Both Before and Behind have tried to recruit Harry. I suspect Behind recruited Justin. The fact they want "new talent" is interesting. Now, why do you think they make an individual go mad who works with them? Nemesis does seem to make people act insanely, but there is always a reason. A goal to be accomplished. Very little that we saw from Peabody suggested that he was mad. Even if you say that the idea of working with beings that want to destroy reality is mad, it doesn't necessarily mean a person who works with them is having a psychotic break. I am not sure what you mean by Cowl "being on that route". By you're argument (unless I misdunderstand you), Cowl either is mad just for working with them (which he assuredly has been for many years now) or he was already mad from some contact with them in the past. The Cowl we met seemed very sane - the fact he could question his own sanity is an indication of that. He might be a megolomaniac or a zealot or perhaps even a nihilist. But I don't think he is crazy, and I haven't seen any indication he heading that way.
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 17, 2020, 07:02:48 AM ---Playing dead is only useful if you are at least a suspect in some way and only really useful if someone is actively looking for you. You sacrifice all influence and contacts you actually have to make people stop looking for you. Simon and Justin had no reason to hide and the way they died is not one they would choose when faking dead. Fire destroys everything and the dead curse most likely uses up valuable energy you need to return.
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Pure conjecture. You don't know that Death Curses use all the energy you need to come back via Necromancy. From what we saw of the Ethereal Plane, Harry's magic was mostly based on memories. Even if you were right, that would be even better cover than being dead. They would have an even tighter alibi if the arrogant White Council believed it was impossible. We have no idea of the magical mechanics of returning from death to life. And as I explained earlier - it isn't clear fire has any bearing on that. Harry didn't travel physically from the physical spot his body was in. His spirit was always in the spirit world. It was anchored to his body, sure. But he "awoke" on the tracks in the train station. Which wasn't necessarily the Ethereal Plane...it seemed to be some demesne or domain between the Ethereal Plan proper and the "Here After". Not to mention that if fire burned both spirit and body all the time...wouldn't all those who are burned/killed by flame have burned spirits? Yet of course they do not - not at least until the pass into the Beyond. Fire disperses magic and does have an effect on unprotected spirits, true. But the action of "leaving the body" or becoming untethered to it likely has little to do with any of that. As evidenced by all those spirits that pass beyond instead of being crisped.
As for why someone would fake their death.
1) We don't know that someone wasn't about to expose them. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the Council looks internally all the time. Harry is some evidence of that, but so is Morgan, Simon, Justin and Margaret Le Fay. Hell, Kemmler probably was White Council once himself! The Council routinely looks into the activities of it's members. Both openly and in secret.
2) If Justin and Simon were being investigated (and Simon was several times - read the paranet papers), they would need to cover their tracks and if they couldn't perhaps they needed to disappear - that's a reason right there. They would hardly be the first. Even if the White Council wasn't investigating them who is to say that other beings and organisations were not?
3) If they weren't being investigated at all they still may have chosen to disappear in order to escape any potential scrutiny and perhaps act without their old restraints. Remember, some wizards also monitor future crimes (very Minority Report) and so perhaps they wished to avoid that also.
4) There may have been benefits from crossing over and coming back that we are not aware of (that are hinted at by Vadderung and Rashid etc). Perhaps there are other unknown benefits as well.
--- Quote from: kbrizzle on May 17, 2020, 05:45:03 AM ---I agree with @ Bad Alias that Cowl retreating from Harry & the Alphas shouldn’t be looked at as Cowl being a wuss per se - I imagine that he wanted to save his strength for what he thought of as his real threats - Grevane & Corpsetaker.
I also don’t think Eb is the most powerful mortal wizard alive either, although he likely has the most combat experience.
@Yuillegan
I mean Cowl was at a party in a fairly noticeable role, so much so that Harry recognized him despite never having interacted with him before. There were also likely members from every Signatory present at Bianca’s ball so it was a fairly high profile event.
I don’t recall any textual evidence of Justin having attended Maggie & Raith Sr’s dinner, the closest thing I can think of is when Eb tells Harry that Justin was an associate of his mother.
I still can’t think of many advantages Justin has by playing dead - the disadvantages outweigh the gains from what I can tell
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Hmm yeah I can't find the text either right now. I think it might be in a WOJ or an interview. I'll keep looking.
It was a high profile event, but he was hardly recognisable other than a cloaked figure (of which there were two). They also acted as attendants. I doubt most people who didn't know who they were even noticed them...Harry noticed them because that is part of who he is. A detective. Harry remembered that he had seen two cloaked figures at Bianca's ball and made a guess it was them. It could well have been wrong.
See my reasons above about advatages and disadvantages.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on May 18, 2020, 02:07:54 AM ---I don't know if that's a fair guess. Why do you think an active "alive" member is a better candidate than a dead one?
--- End quote ---
The only reason to wear a mask is to protect an identity. A living, active or at least potentially active identity. Harry thought they were council and they were certainly powerful and knowledgeable enough to be so. The council is also the most logical source of powerful warlocks.
--- Quote ---Well, we don't know that. But you're probably right. We just haven't seen enough of them to really make any real assumptions. The one thing they do apart from try and kill everything is recruit. Both Before and Behind have tried to recruit Harry. I suspect Behind recruited Justin. The fact they want "new talent" is interesting. Now, why do you think they make an individual go mad who works with them? Nemesis does seem to make people act insanely, but there is always a reason. A goal to be accomplished. Very little that we saw from Peabody suggested that he was mad. Even if you say that the idea of working with beings that want to destroy reality is mad, it doesn't necessarily mean a person who works with them is having a psychotic break. I am not sure what you mean by Cowl "being on that route". By you're argument (unless I misdunderstand you), Cowl either is mad just for working with them (which he assuredly has been for many years now) or he was already mad from some contact with them in the past. The Cowl we met seemed very sane - the fact he could question his own sanity is an indication of that. He might be a megolomaniac or a zealot or perhaps even a nihilist. But I don't think he is crazy, and I haven't seen any indication he heading that way.
Pure conjecture. You don't know that Death Curses use all the energy you need to come back via Necromancy.
--- End quote ---
There seems a strong connection between the spiritual power of a wizard and his spirit. We also have not seen a death curse from anyone who returned or tried to return from dead. Kemmlers dead curse would have been devastating.
--- Quote ---From what we saw of the Ethereal Plane, Harry's magic was mostly based on memories. Even if you were right, that would be even better cover than being dead.
--- End quote ---
The best alibi is actually a true one? The problem is that being dead actually reduces your options to act in the living world dramatically.
--- Quote ---They would have an even tighter alibi if the arrogant White Council believed it was impossible. We have no idea of the magical mechanics of returning from death to life.
--- End quote ---
Actually we do. Ghost story shows us how corpstaker was trying to return, Lea tells us actually how, and it probably was how Kemper managed it. She was his pupil after all.
Find a body. Get the original owner out of it and take over. Harry had his own body to return to but for most dead that is not an option, too damaged.
--- Quote --- And as I explained earlier - it isn't clear fire has any bearing on that. Harry didn't travel physically from the physical spot his body was in. His spirit was always in the spirit world. It was anchored to his body, sure. But he "awoke" on the tracks in the train station. Which wasn't necessarily the Ethereal Plane...it seemed to be some demesne or domain between the Ethereal Plan proper and the "Here After". Not to mention that if fire burned both spirit and body all the time...wouldn't all those who are burned/killed by flame have burned spirits?
--- End quote ---
When Harry had used up all his power at the end of ghost story and morty could not see him anymore he still had his soul. That is enough to go om but not enough to do anything meaningful in the spirit world.
--- Quote ---Yet of course they do not - not at least until the pass into the Beyond. Fire disperses magic and does have an effect on unprotected spirits, true. But the action of "leaving the body" or becoming untethered to it likely has little to do with any of that. As evidenced by all those spirits that pass beyond instead of being crisped.
--- End quote ---
Their soul passes beyond. That is different from their spirit.
--- Quote ---As for why someone would fake their death.
1) We don't know that someone wasn't about to expose them. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the Council looks internally all the time. Harry is some evidence of that, but so is Morgan, Simon, Justin and Margaret Le Fay. Hell, Kemmler probably was White Council once himself! The Council routinely looks into the activities of it's members. Both openly and in secret.
2) If Justin and Simon were being investigated (and Simon was several times - read the paranet papers), they would need to cover their tracks and if they couldn't perhaps they needed to disappear - that's a reason right there. They would hardly be the first. Even if the White Council wasn't investigating them who is to say that other beings and organisations were not?
3) If they weren't being investigated at all they still may have chosen to disappear in order to escape any potential scrutiny and perhaps act without their old restraints. Remember, some wizards also monitor future crimes (very Minority Report) and so perhaps they wished to avoid that also.
4) There may have been benefits from crossing over and coming back that we are not aware of (that are hinted at by Vadderung and Rashid etc). Perhaps there are other unknown benefits as well.
--- End quote ---
There probably are but enough to risk it? You can try to return but it is difficult and tedious and success is far from guaranteed. I think we can safely assume that those few who do return from the dead did not arrange their own dead.
--- Quote ---Hmm yeah I can't find the text either right now. I think it might be in a WOJ or an interview. I'll keep looking.
It was a high profile event, but he was hardly recognisable other than a cloaked figure (of which there were two). They also acted as attendants. I doubt most people who didn't know who they were even noticed them...Harry noticed them because that is part of who he is. A detective. Harry remembered that he had seen two cloaked figures at Bianca's ball and made a guess it was them. It could well have been wrong.
See my reasons above about advatages and disadvantages.
--- End quote ---
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 18, 2020, 02:53:17 AM ---The only reason to wear a mask is to protect an identity. A living, active or at least potentially active identity. Harry thought they were council and they were certainly powerful and knowledgeable enough to be so. The council is also the most logical source of powerful warlocks.
--- End quote ---
An identity is an identity, alive or dead. Kemmler is an identity and he is supposedly dead. So is Hitler. The status of their state of being isn't relevant. Simon was Council. Elaine is strong enough to be Council, but decieved the tests. And so on. Harry was blindly assuming that all the powerful wizards in the world were accounted for and on the White Council. Won't his face be red if he found out about powerful wizards that were not on the Council. Like Grevane and Corpsetaker. So logically, the Council is only potentially a source of powerful warlocks. There may well be others.
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 18, 2020, 02:53:17 AM ---There seems a strong connection between the spiritual power of a wizard and his spirit. We also have not seen a death curse from anyone who returned or tried to return from dead. Kemmlers dead curse would have been devastating.
--- End quote ---
If Kemmler used a death curse. What's to say he didn't the first few times he was "killed"? And as one keen eyed fan pointed out, the Tsar Bomba (the most powerful man made nuclear warhead) exploded on Halloween, 1961. The same date Kemmler died. Which Jim acknowledged without agreeing with. Some guess that the bomb was dropped on him to kill him (or perhaps whatever he was trying to summon). Some guess that he completed the Darkhallow but was still mortal and the bomb was there to kill him. Some guess that there in fact was no bomb and that it was the cover story for Kemmler's immense Death Curse. Time will tell on that story.
But you are speculating. It isn't a fact that Death Curses use up the energy required to come back. Jim hasn't EVER said that. So don't present such statements as fact.
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 18, 2020, 02:53:17 AM ---The best alibi is actually a true one? The problem is that being dead actually reduces your options to act in the living world dramatically.
--- End quote ---
Yes of course. For example, in a mundane murder mystery the least likely person to have been the murderer was the person who was killed prior to the events. When it is discovered they haven't in fact died, everyone gasps and says "It couldn't be! That's impossible. You're dead!" or something along those lines. Same for Simon or whoever. Oldest trick in the book.
It only reduces your options to show your face. But if you are as disguised as Cowl is...I think it hardly matters.
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 18, 2020, 02:53:17 AM ---Actually we do. Ghost story shows us how corpstaker was trying to return, Lea tells us actually how, and it probably was how Kemper managed it. She was his pupil after all. Find a body. Get the original owner out of it and take over. Harry had his own body to return to but for most dead that is not an option, too damaged.
--- End quote ---
We have Harry's perspective on a spell/ritual that he had little to no understanding of. He hasn't read how to do it, been told how to do it or even been taught how to do it. Lea tells us the basic components Corpsetaker will use. And of course that assumes that there is only one way to do it. Kemmler, Corpsetaker and Cowl are hardly the only people to do it. Although the Jury is out on Cowl. Harry didn't necessarily have the option to return to his body. Had Uriel not wanted Harry to roam free, upon Harry's "death" most likely he would have awoken to being Mab's knight and Demonreach's warden (and Bonea's father, but that's less a formal role). And how does one take over? Mind magic that Harry's has never been taught (and he is pretty bad at mind magic altogether).
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 18, 2020, 02:53:17 AM ---When Harry had used up all his power at the end of ghost story and morty could not see him anymore he still had his soul. That is enough to go om but not enough to do anything meaningful in the spirit world.
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That isn't necessarily true. Quite likely he would have diminished beyond that had Uriel not intervened. He also still had spirit left.
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 18, 2020, 02:53:17 AM ---Their soul passes beyond. That is different from their spirit.
--- End quote ---
I am not going to get into another long debate on this (it happened in another thread somewhere) but I will say that again is pure conjecture. Soul and spirit have been used semi-interchangably in the books and in WOJ. What you just said isn't fact or gospel. Unless you have some proof somewhere that you can share?
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 18, 2020, 02:53:17 AM ---There probably are but enough to risk it? You can try to return but it is difficult and tedious and success is far from guaranteed. I think we can safely assume that those few who do return from the dead did not arrange their own dead.
--- End quote ---
In point of fact, Harry himself arranged his own death. He might have been nudged but he did arrange it. It's not such a strange thing. People fake their deaths all the time. There are often strong financial incentives (either to escape debts or claim insurance), but also to escape convictions of crime, and probably other undesirable situations. The fact that Kemmler returned several times, and probably wasn't the first necromancer to do so suggests it isn't so strange. Corpsetaker may well have returned before, and it seems likely Cowl did at least once (if not more than once). I am not so sure that Grevane knew how to as we never saw him attempt it, but that doesn't mean he won't show up.
Not to mention those that don't actually die but are just percieved to die. The most common form of pseudocide (faking ones own death) is drowning as it leaves a plausible explanation for why there is no body.
On that, water grounds out magic and spirits can't handle it. Harry "died" in water. If the elements were such barriers wouldn't Harry have not been able to go out?
The problem is that there is the physical plane (earth) and the spiritual plane (the never-never). That's all we have so far. It seems reasonable that there is another layer to reality that normally Harry and other "alive" mortals cannot percieve even in the Never-never but permeates both Never-never and mortal physical plane. Let's call it the Ethereal plane. Each of these layers coexist on top of the other. So Harry's body anchors his soul. But his soul (and/or spirit) where never in the physical plane. The occupied the corosponding location in the Ethereal plane. This is both in and outside the Never-never. That much is clear from the fact that you could open a Way somewhere and not be in the Ethereal plane but be in a corrospinding Never-never location (like the FBI headquaters and the demnese of the Erlking). But over and through the FBI headquaters would still be that other part of reality, the Ethereal plane. GS makes this all pretty clear. It probably helps to have played some D&D or something. But each layer of reality both is on top of another layer and through that layer (yet unable to touch). An interesting example (although a bit different) was the show Fringe and there use of quatum mechanics. They both do AND don't occupy the same space, just in corrosponding universes.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on May 18, 2020, 07:38:46 AM --- ... On that, water grounds out magic and spirits can't handle it. Harry "died" in water. If the elements were such barriers wouldn't Harry have not been able to go out? ...
--- End quote ---
Except Mab intervened, and IIRC her magic isn't particularly affected by water. Plenty of waterfae, after all!
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