The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on March 16, 2020, 04:53:30 AM ---@morris: I don't see why you say Harry has any responsibility in these circumstances. If there was something he could have done, without the benefit of hindsight, then I'd say he has some responsibility.
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How did Susan find out about the Ball? How did she find out about the invitation and what it looked like? Susan was a reporter willing to sleep with him to get in close and Harry knew it. So what did he do? He slept with her. Read Chapter 8 in Grave Peril. Harry should have dated a stripper. Better sex and fewer questions. If a crappy book.
In terms of Kim Delaney he gives her a magical device, or whatever it was, and she uses it to get killed. He took her word for something and she lied. So your kids ask for a puppy. They promise that without fail, that if you let them have it, they will take care of it and walk it ten times a day. Pop quiz. Are they lying? Well of course they are. Their desire for the puppy leads them to write checks they can't cash. Harry sold out for a steak dinner.
--- Quote from: Chapter One Fool Moon ---But I couldn’t just go and eat the dinner without giving Kim the information she wanted. It’s not that I’ve never welshed on a deal, but I’ve never done it with anyone human—and definitely not with someone who looked up to me.
Sometimes I hate having a conscience, and a stupidly thorough sense of honor.
“All right, all right,” I sighed. “Let me get the dinner and I’ll tell you what I know.”
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He should have ate Ramen.
Mira:
--- Quote ---How did Susan find out about the Ball? How did she find out about the invitation and what it looked like? Susan was a reporter willing to sleep with him to get in close and Harry knew it. So what did he do? He slept with her. Read Chapter 8 in Grave Peril. Harry should have dated a stripper. Better sex and fewer questions. If a crappy book.
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Hold on, you are blaming him for not wanting to live like a monk when everyone was saying how abnormal it was when he was living like that? There again, it isn't like Harry raped her, Susan chose to sleep with him to get the scoop didn't she? Harry was the vulnerable one actually because sexually and socially he was so fucked up, and she took full advantage to further her career..
--- Quote ---In terms of Kim Delaney he gives her a magical device, or whatever it was, and she uses it to get killed. He took her word for something and she lied. So your kids ask for a puppy. They promise that without fail, that if you let them have it, they will take care of it and walk it ten times a day. Pop quiz. Are they lying? Well of course they are. Their desire for the puppy leads them to write checks they can't cash. Harry sold out for a steak dinner.
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No, he didn't, he stopped giving information when he realized she actually wanted it to use it. He warned her that using it was far above her training or experience... Her comeback was he was the same age she was or near it, ergo her qualifications were as good as his.. No, your puppy analogy doesn't work, it is more like she lied to him about wanting to know how to construct an atomic dirty bomb because she was doing a school paper on terrorism, when actually she was planning to put the bomb together. She was a friend, he thought he knew her, if he is at fault for anything, he was too trusting. No, he didn't sell out for a steak dinner, if he had, he would have given all the information, she still would have died because even with the information she wasn't qualified to put it together. When he realized she was going to use it, he told her exactly that, tried to question her about it, warned her, and she blew him off, saying he was the same age as her so that makes her just as qualified and threw the paper that he had drawn back at him... Then she proceeded to go back to MacFinn lacking even that much information.. Um, who's fault is that? Oh on the puppy thing? The animal shelters are full of puppies and dogs that people lie to themselves and others about what good care they are going to give... It rarely turns out well for the puppies or the dogs..
morriswalters:
@Mira
I'm answering a specific question. Could Harry have made different choices? Should he live like a Monk? I wouldn't if I was the fictional character. But that choice brings baggage. That you don't like the baggage doesn't give you a pass when things don't go the way you plan. Cutting Susan's throat at Chichen Itza is the sum of all the choices made by all the characters prior to the event. Father Forthill states it pretty succinctly.
--- Quote ---“Power,” he said, waving a hand in an all-encompassing gesture. “All power is the same. Magic. Physical strength. Economic strength. Political strength. It all serves a single purpose—it gives its possessor a broader spectrum of choices. It creates alternative courses of action.”
“I guess,” I said. “So?”
“So,” he said. “You have more choices. Which means that you have much improved odds of making mistakes. You’re only human. Once in a while, you’re going to screw the pooch.”
“I don’t mind that,” I said. “When I’m the only one who pays for it.”
“But that isn’t in your control,” he said. “You cannot see all outcomes. You couldn’t have known that those creatures would go to the Carpenter house.”
I ground my teeth. “So? Daniel’s still hurt. Molly could be dead.”
“But their condition was not yours to ordain,” Forthill said. “All power has its limits.”
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Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on March 16, 2020, 04:27:07 PM ---@Mira
I'm answering a specific question. Could Harry have made different choices? Should he live like a Monk? I wouldn't if I was the fictional character. But that choice brings baggage. That you don't like the baggage doesn't give you a pass when things don't go the way you plan. Cutting Susan's throat at Chichen Itza is the sum of all the choices made by all the characters prior to the event. Father Forthill states it pretty succinctly.
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Yes, he does and you seem to be ignoring what he is saying.
--- Quote ---“But that isn’t in your control,” he said. “You cannot see all outcomes. You couldn’t have known that those creatures would go to the Carpenter house.”
I ground my teeth. “So? Daniel’s still hurt. Molly could be dead.”
“But their condition was not yours to ordain,” Forthill said. “All power has its limits.”
--- End quote ---
In other words, Harry cannot get in the head of others, he can neither control Kim's lies or her failure to come clean as to why she wanted the knowledge.. Nor could he limit the lengths Susan would go to to further her career. Nor can he cut himself off from such people, or stop himself from coming to love such people or be friends with or try to help these people.. All he could do, he did, he tried to warn them out of his own experience, but he is forbidden to use mind control over them.. As Bad Alias said, no amount of explanation about vamps would have stopped Susan from going to that party.. Kim chose not to tell Harry everything as to why she wanted that knowledge, she chose to lie. As Father Forthill said, “But their condition was not yours to ordain,” Forthill said. “All power has its limits.” How Susan ended up, tragic as it is was basically the product of her own condition, Harry has power, but it has it's limits.. Only exception here is the birth control issue that resulted in the birth of Maggie... But even that was complicated by a whole lot of things like physical/mental condition and vamp venom, having sex then wasn't responsible for either party, but in that condition neither can they be held responsible.
Dina:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on March 16, 2020, 04:43:23 AM ---You are quite understandable. :)
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Thanks :)
--- Quote from: Mira on March 16, 2020, 05:42:27 AM ---Totally agree, actually Kim wasn't Harry's apprentice, she was just someone with talent and a friend that he gave instruction to from time to time. Supposedly she was merely asking him an academic question, his mistake was trying to answer it as honestly as he could with in the rules of the White Council. By the time he realized her question wasn't merely academic he had already told her too much, but then he proceeded to tell her he wouldn't tell her more, why he couldn't and why it was so dangerous for someone with her level of training to even attempt it. All she did was get pissed and stomp out, not sure what he could have done, he got a bit side tracked himself shortly after that.
Totally agree Bad Alias, I'd only add that Susan had been using Harry repeatedly to get "scoops" to further her career, so no amount of impressing would have deterred her from trying to go to that party. No, Harry isn't perfect and he has made plenty of mistakes, but what happened to both Susan and Kim is mostly on them.
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You are right.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on March 16, 2020, 01:42:48 PM ---In terms of Kim Delaney he gives her a magical device, or whatever it was, and she uses it to get killed. He took her word for something and she lied. So your kids ask for a puppy. They promise that without fail, that if you let them have it, they will take care of it and walk it ten times a day. Pop quiz. Are they lying? Well of course they are. Their desire for the puppy leads them to write checks they can't cash. Harry sold out for a steak dinner.He should have ate Ramen.
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Again the kids metaphor. Again I don't think it applies. You gave a pass to your children. If your husband (for instance) is the one wanting a puppy and he promises to take care of it and he does not, he is to blame and it is not your fault that he does not.
About Maggie's conception: Yes, both of them are to blame because the lack of precautions. At first, specially Harry, because Susan was in not condition to think. But after the moment happened, it was Susan decisions what to do. Harry tried to contact her (not because he thought on a baby, just because he cared for her) and she avoided him.
Let's be real. Imagine a couple, having unprotected sex. That is, of course, wrong from both of them. Then, the following day he calls her and she says she is leaving to another country and she will be very busy with her work. She does not call him again. It is his fault that she discovered she was pregnant, decided to keep the secret, carry the baby alone, gave her on adoption and never told the father until the child gets ill and the foster family wants to find the biological father to see if he can spare a lung for a transplant? (Just an example, of course). Note that I am not mentioning why the woman did that. Perhaps she is just not ready for a kid, perhaps she suddenly enters in witness protection and can't risk the child, perhaps she does not like the father and think he could be abusive to the child, there could be 1000 reasons.
Of course, Harry and Susan have supernatural complications. As I said, perhaps they did not know that she could conceive (but as Susan was the one working with St.whathisname people, she was in a better position to have asked the question. I know I would have asked that almost immediately. And, as I said, if I knew I am able to conceive and also have issues that could make me lost the control I would take pills, or have an intrauterine device or whatever could work in half-turned (unless I was actually planning to have a child with someone)
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