The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
Redepisg:
This morning I had a thought provoking post about the concepts of power and responsibility and the dangers of keeping vital information from people who need it, especially when they don't realize they need it, and how Harry has grown over the books from all the secrecy bs in the early books that would have eventually gotten Murphy, Molly, Butters, and all his other (mostly) vanilla friends killed if he had kept it up, but the forum seems to have eaten it.
Also, I'm not giving Kim and Susan a pass on anything. Both of them made their decisions and had to deal with the consequences. By the same token, Harry does not get a pass for withholding vital information from Kim and Susan. They made their decisions based on what they thought they knew. He doesn't get a pass for hiding the realities of the supernatural from Susan to the extent she thinks old horror movie tropes are enough to protect herself when she invites herself into a vampire's den. He screwed up. Repeatedly. He goes on and on in the early books about how normal people need to stay away from the supernatural and how dangerous it is, and also about power and responsibility. He has power, he has knowledge, by his own logic he had the responsibility to use it wisely and in these two cases in particular, failed to do so. Kim and Susan were already involved with the supernatural. Susan didn't understand the true extent of the danger, and Kim...the whole scene with Kim, in particular, struck me as someone who knows they need help trying the only way they can think of to get help from the one person who can help them, but who refuses to help almost by default. Harry knew she was doing something above her skill level, basically told her she was an idiot for even trying, and apparently expected her to follow his orders and give it up on the spot. Is it any wonder she lied about what she was really doing? Early Harry has a lot of annoying complexes...Hero complex, Mysterious Wizard complex, I Am Always Right complex, I Am The Only One Who Can Do It complex...not to mention an overabundance of pride and even arrogance. Frankly, while I enjoy the books, Harry, especially when looked at objectively early on, is a complete ass. He gets better as the books go on, but he makes tons of mistakes on the way (and ends up paying for them too, for the most part). Character development is a good thing.
Dina:
I sometimes feel like I am talking in Spanish, so some of you cannot understand me.
IKim was Harry's apprentice, so Harry telling no should have been enough. Susan stole and forged an invitation. That is not Harry's fault. He did not screw up, they did nothing
About Maggie's conception. I'll do another post later
morriswalters:
You are quite understandable. :)
Bad Alias:
The only thing Harry could have done to stop Kim was to physically stop her. A sleep spell like the one he did to Murphy is the only practical thing I can think of. Kidnapping or murder seem excessive (but would have resulted in less death than nothing). He could have followed her and keep an eye on her if he was willing to ignore a murder investigation. In hindsight, that would have been the right decision, but I can pick lottery numbers correctly 100% of the time using hindsight.
I still don't see how Harry could have impressed the danger on Susan.
He could have cut all social ties so as not to be in the position to be taken advantage of by people like Susan and Kim. Both abused Harry's friendship. Susan stole the invitation. Kim leveraged Harry's poverty to guilt him into maybe giving her too much information. She lied repeatedly to him. If she was honest with him, the case would have been half solved by chapter three. How could Harry have known that she was planning on holding a loup garou when he didn't know that was a thing that existed?
The only thing Harry could have done given his limited knowledge at the time was to start by getting an explanation of where she found the symbol and what she planned on doing with it before telling her anything. That might have worked. What happened was that she lied to him at least three times, ignored him, took his warnings as insults, and stormed off.
@morris: I don't see why you say Harry has any responsibility in these circumstances. If there was something he could have done, without the benefit of hindsight, then I'd say he has some responsibility.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Dina on March 16, 2020, 01:06:23 AM ---I sometimes feel like I am talking in Spanish, so some of you cannot understand me.
IKim was Harry's apprentice, so Harry telling no should have been enough. Susan stole and forged an invitation. That is not Harry's fault. He did not screw up, they did nothing
About Maggie's conception. I'll do another post later
--- End quote ---
Totally agree, actually Kim wasn't Harry's apprentice, she was just someone with talent and a friend that he gave instruction to from time to time. Supposedly she was merely asking him an academic question, his mistake was trying to answer it as honestly as he could with in the rules of the White Council. By the time he realized her question wasn't merely academic he had already told her too much, but then he proceeded to tell her he wouldn't tell her more, why he couldn't and why it was so dangerous for someone with her level of training to even attempt it. All she did was get pissed and stomp out, not sure what he could have done, he got a bit side tracked himself shortly after that.
--- Quote ---would have resulted in less death than nothing). He could have followed her and keep an eye on her if he was willing to ignore a murder investigation. In hindsight, that would have been the right decision, but I can pick lottery numbers correctly 100% of the time using hindsight.
I still don't see how Harry could have impressed the danger on Susan.
He could have cut all social ties so as not to be in the position to be taken advantage of by people like Susan and Kim. Both abused Harry's friendship. Susan stole the invitation. Kim leveraged Harry's poverty to guilt him into maybe giving her too much information. She lied repeatedly to him. If she was honest with him, the case would have been half solved by chapter three. How could Harry have known that she was planning on holding a loup garou when he didn't know that was a thing that existed?
The only thing Harry could have done given his limited knowledge at the time was to start by getting an explanation of where she found the symbol and what she planned on doing with it before telling her anything. That might have worked. What happened was that she lied to him at least three times, ignored him, took his warnings as insults, and stormed off.
--- End quote ---
Totally agree Bad Alias, I'd only add that Susan had been using Harry repeatedly to get "scoops" to further her career, so no amount of impressing would have deterred her from trying to go to that party. No, Harry isn't perfect and he has made plenty of mistakes, but what happened to both Susan and Kim is mostly on them.
--- Quote ---Also, I'm not giving Kim and Susan a pass on anything. Both of them made their decisions and had to deal with the consequences. By the same token, Harry does not get a pass for withholding vital information from Kim and Susan. They made their decisions based on what they thought they knew. He doesn't get a pass for hiding the realities of the supernatural from Susan to the extent she thinks old horror movie tropes are enough to protect herself when she invites herself into a vampire's den. He screwed up. Repeatedly. He goes on and on in the early books about how normal people need to stay away from the supernatural and how dangerous it is, and also about power and responsibility. He has power, he has knowledge, by his own logic he had the responsibility to use it wisely and in these two cases in particular, failed to do so. Kim and Susan were already involved with the supernatural. Susan didn't understand the true extent of the danger, and Kim...the whole scene with Kim, in particular, struck me as someone who knows they need help trying the only way they can think of to get help from the one person who can help them, but who refuses to help almost by default. Harry knew she was doing something above her skill level, basically told her she was an idiot for even trying, and apparently expected her to follow his orders and give it up on the spot.
--- End quote ---
Kim never tells what she wants the information for, even when asked outright. He tells her that the type of creature this circle is meant to contain is way above her training level to do, then she lies to him. Why? Not because of his attitude towards her, but because either she wants the gig all to herself or MacFinn swore her to secrecy. Her motives are complex to be sure, but lack of respect for magic and what it takes to be a full wizard is a huge part of it. Why? Because her attitude was how hard can it be? Why should only a full wizard be able to do this? If she had been truthful with Harry in the first place, he most likely would have helped her and both her and MacFinn would still be alive.
Nor did Susan ever fully respect Harry, if she had she might have taken him at his word.. But she chose to close her ears to all of that, it was a scoop, she could read the headlines now, "My Night Out with the Vamps.." It would make her career, Harry's refusal spoiled all of that... No, Harry could have given her a complete seminar on the dangers of the Red Court and she still would have stolen the invitation and forged it, Harry after all in her mind was just being over protective.. Both Kim and Susan were both too smart for their own good, like people who visit high cliffs above a beach or gorge and ignore the signs, "Danger do not go past this point!" Sometimes they get away with it, silly signs, the place is just trying to protect it's own ass and the insurance company demands the warning signs, it really isn't all that dangerous.. And sometimes we read about them in the newspaper, "so and so was killed because they ventured beyond the do not cross signs, the cliff gave way... Or worse yet, those that try to rescue these fools get hurt or killed in the process. The warning signs are there for a reason, just because they don't spell out completely the extent of the danger doesn't mean they should be disobeyed. Sometimes the warning signs do have an added explanation, like "edges are very unstable and can give away at any time..." People still go beyond them anyway, sometimes they get away with it, and sometimes they don't and we read about it. Kim and Susan are both the kind that venture beyond the warning signs, no amount of explanation would have stopped either of them.
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