The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: toodeep on May 12, 2020, 05:03:42 PM ---In response to not getting much response Harry complained and Kincaid said, "But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me. When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal. She physically cannot let such information leave her head." So clearly Ivy does experience some limits on what she is and isn't allowed to do with her power/knowledge from the Archive, which may be described as being required to stay neutral.
--- End quote ---
Kincaid doesn't know Ivy's true purpose. He wouldn't know that she could. And Ivy did give Harry the information he needed. She also interfered in this micro fiction.
I'm not arguing that the Archive won't act so as to appear bound by neutrality. I'm arguing that the evidence we have of her being bound by neutrality is tied up with the lie of her purpose so that we don't know that she is in fact bound by neutrality. We know that the Archive is not neutral. The Archive pursues a goal. That goal appears to be the obliviation of most if not all supernatural creatures. We know Ivy acted to help Harry twice.
If Ivy is bound by neutrality, we clearly don't have any idea what that means because it hasn't stopped her from doing a whole lot. Saying Ivy is bound by neutrality is a poor objection to someone's theory that Ivy got word to Mab to be prepared to save Harry (or any other theory that doesn't necessitate Ivy acting openly).
g33k:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on May 08, 2020, 11:10:19 PM --- ... No because the "bound" language comes from the description of the Archive's essential nature. I believe agreeing to the use of the bound language for two different situations just confuses the issue when people have enough trouble with this concept when not using the same language to describe both ideas ...
--- End quote ---
I think this is a critical component of the disagreement on this point.
Is she "bound" (unable to do some things, forced to do some things) as the Archive, regardless of the Accords? Kinkaid says so; at least, that she cannot do some things. It certainly appears so to me. Is there explicit WoJ?
Then we ask, is she "bound" under the Accords? I think so, but only legally: Accord members are able to do whatever they want, it's just an issue of whether they get caught, and whether Mab then goes all psycho-vengeful on them for breaking the Accords...
It's all too easy to conflate the two usages.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on May 12, 2020, 06:19:20 PM ---Kincaid doesn't know Ivy's true purpose. He wouldn't know that she could. And Ivy did give Harry the information he needed. She also interfered in this micro fiction.
I'm not arguing that the Archive won't act so as to appear bound by neutrality. I'm arguing that the evidence we have of her being bound by neutrality is tied up with the lie of her purpose so that we don't know that she is in fact bound by neutrality. We know that the Archive is not neutral. The Archive pursues a goal. That goal appears to be the obliviation of most if not all supernatural creatures. We know Ivy acted to help Harry twice.
If Ivy is bound by neutrality, we clearly don't have any idea what that means because it hasn't stopped her from doing a whole lot. Saying Ivy is bound by neutrality is a poor objection to someone's theory that Ivy got word to Mab to be prepared to save Harry (or any other theory that doesn't necessitate Ivy acting openly).
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It is much like the Sidhe, Lea did it in Ghost Story. When they want to tell you something but they can't they may resort to oracle like riddles.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I was going to say yes, but I'm not sure if she is a de facto or de jure neutral party. I'm also not sure if she is a neutral party regarding any other two parties.
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The Archive is the collective written memory of mankind, that makes it a bit different from Marcone for example who begins with a bias.. In Small Favor, Harry went more to rescue a child than the Archive.
The Council sees her as a computer base..
--- Quote ---This is either 100% wrong or pure speculation based on some reasoning you haven't expressed. She was asked to serve to mediate the duel because she's a "neutral party" under the Accords. In Small Favor, Harry "could have chosen any one of a dozen neutral arbiters." Ch. 35. Marcone is a neutral party. Are you suggesting that Marcone is "bound to neutrality," that he was "created neutral?"
As to the claim she is "bound to neutrality," I ask that you read the quote I provided, my argument based on that quote and what we know about the Archive's true purpose, and make an argument that my reasoning is flawed or give some other reasoning that you think is better instead of just saying I'm wrong.
--- End quote ---
Yup, you are wrong... Luccio, Small Favor page 408
--- Quote ---The Archive was created to be a neutral force. A repository of knowledge. But what if Ivy's unique circumstance allowed her to ignore those limitations?"
--- End quote ---
The female hosting the Archive is human, with all the emotions that goes with being human, thus with a bias. However in it's five thousand year history the host has been able to keep her bias out of it, sometimes it has driven her mad to do so. Ivy is unique because she had no human experience before she became host, up until she met Harry it more or less was working out, but he gave her a name and treated her like a human child, which triggered the biases a human child would have. Thus this puts Ivy, the human host with biases in conflict with the Archive, a thing created to be a neutral repository of all human knowledge with no bias.
morriswalters:
All neutrality means with respect to the Accords is that she isn't involved in the ongoing fight.
Jim on the other hand is blowing smoke as far as the Archive is concerned until he reveals how and when she was created. If she is a container of all human knowledge she predates the White Council by at least 5000 years and probably more. And by more I mean a lot more. So what can the Council know?
It only could have been created in a more modern era if it were constructed from a spirit which had the sum total of knowledge of the human race up to the time it was created.
Toodles
I have discovered at least one personality who also uses this, the Millennial Farmer
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