The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
Mira:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on April 28, 2020, 11:00:44 PM ---My claim is that Id Harry said that. It's about halfway through Ch. 23 of Skin Game. I can change text size, which changes the number of pages.
--- End quote ---
He says that part of Lash remained, that was Bonnie. However at the time Harry didn't know that.
--- Quote ---Oh, and the sigil was no longer on his hand.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I know that as well, but that still doesn't explain why after he set the guitar to one side he dug up the coin and called Father Forthill to get it. If he had nothing to fear, why not just leave it were it was at? Under three feet of concrete,[please don't hold me to the exact depth.. :P] and in a magical containment circle to boot. Or was there just enough doubt that he felt it was safer if he got rid of the coin all together? Considering what happened in Father Forthill's office in Changes he was right to fear. Consider this, if Lasciel was no longer able to exert influence over Harry, why was she so effective? "And it is all your fault!"
morriswalters:
No shadow, no need to contain the coin behind magical barriers. Why would he keep it? As to your second question manipulating people isn't all that difficult. Per canon, this is what the Fallen do.
There is no text that I have yet seen that says Lasciel was the Fallen who whispered in Harry ear. Some one of the Fallen did, but barring a WOJ or text the question is open.
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 29, 2020, 12:49:45 AM ---No shadow, no need to contain the coin behind magical barriers. Why would he keep it? As to your second question manipulating people isn't all that difficult. Per canon, this is what the Fallen do.
There is no text that I have yet seen that says Lasciel was the Fallen who whispered in Harry ear. Some one of the Fallen did, but barring a WOJ or text the question is open.
--- End quote ---
Lasciel, Skin Game page 368
--- Quote ---"Meaning that since a whisper in your ear that should have killed you seems to have
failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart. and collect our child. She's far too
valuable a resource to die with you."
--- End quote ---
Ambiguous to be sure, because she doesn't say it was her nor does she say it wasn't her, nor does she name Anduriel or any of the other Fallen as having done it on her behalf.. I think it can be read either way. Having said that,
--- Quote ---No shadow, no need to contain the coin behind magical barriers. Why would he keep it? As to your second question manipulating people isn't all that difficult. Per canon, this is what the Fallen do.
--- End quote ---
All the more reason why when he heard the whisper he feared that Lasciel still had some influence, hence he got rid of the coin.. In a sense, since Lasciel claims that Bonnie is her kid, not belonging to the transformed Lash, Harry may have a very serious future problem on his hands. I believe Jim has hinted at that. Could them problem be, Lasciel still has a lot to say about things even if it is through her daughter.
g33k:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on April 26, 2020, 03:38:32 PM --- ... Lasciel's coin could have been anywhere on Earth and she could still reach out to Harry because she could reach out to anyone on Earth--it's just against the rules ...
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure this is incorrect:
--- Quote --- ... while in the coins, they ARE effectively frozen in carbonite without a human agent to assist them ...
--- End quote ---
(From: https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-angels-demons-fallen-and-knights-of-the-cross/ )
Now, one could argue that they have some degree of "human agent" merely from someone having chosen merely to touch a coin; the Fallen had enough non-Carbonite agency to implant a Shadow, after all!
But not enough that Lasciel could reach out to touch Harry again, apparently, nor BE reached (except to do a full Denarian Host thing):
* Once Harry had gone past the normal "expiration date" (well into the range of "humans don't resist the lures this long" territory), it would have been time for Lash to "phone home" (if she could have).
* Once Harry had gone past the normal "expiration date" (well into the range of "humans don't resist the lures this long" territory), it would have been time for Lasciel to "contact the field agent" (if she could have).
* It's pretty clear that the Shadow had more than one "damn, he's going to die this time" moment; if full-on Lasciel had been available for consult, without calling her fully, I think the Shadow would have done so.
* If Harry could have done so -- contacting without committing -- the Shadow would have explained that he could "phone" the fallen without actually "inviting her over" (it would be a nice intermediate step of temptation -- see, still en-Coin'ed, still safe!).
* Above all: when "Lash" began to waver in her cause, when she began to become her own individual, when Harry began to sway her... she would (in the early stages of doubt and uncertainty) have contacted Lasciel to regain surety and eliminate the doubts.So we have plenty of exemplars where it would have happened if it could have happened; and it didn't happen. And we have explicit WoJ regarding "frozen in carbonite" (i.e. can't happen).
So, no... the Fallen cannot reach out of their coins.
Or at least: if they do, it's the kind of obvious "breaking rules" that dynamite on a prison wall is, and would get direct & immediate response (e.g. from Uriel, and Lucifer (per WoJ, Lucifer himself wants the Denarians limited to their Coins) &c). So it'd be a last-ditch, trumps-of-doom sort of thing. Dare I say, an "apocalyptic" sort of thing. Not that we should go BATty about this...
Mira:
--- Quote ---So, no... the Fallen cannot reach out of their coins.
Or at least: if they do, it's the kind of obvious "breaking rules" that dynamite on a prison wall is, and would get direct & immediate response (e.g. from Uriel, and Lucifer (per WoJ, Lucifer himself wants the Denarians limited to their Coins) &c). So it'd be a last-ditch, trumps-of-doom sort of thing. Dare I say, an "apocalyptic" sort of thing. Not that we should go BATty about this...
--- End quote ---
Exactly, plus if Harry was pregnant with Bonnie of the Lasciel genome, there still might have been enough for a slender thread of connection, even though Lash sacrificed herself. The visit Harry received in Father Forthill's office was pretty faint. In fact it took Uriel's enhancement of the increment for Harry to understand that someone, i.e. one of the Fallen has pushed him over the edge, "and it is all your fault." Now it could be that the Fallen who said this made himself or herself faint for a reason, or it could be if the coin was near and her slight connection to Harry being the still developing Bonnie, that was the best Lasciel could do.
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