The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
Dina:
--- Quote from: g33k on March 22, 2020, 08:53:06 AM ---Am I misremembering, or isn't this (Kim/Harry & blame) one of the forum's regular temper-flaring topics? I think I've roasted in these flamewars before... :o
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I wouldn't know. But the time I come here to the forum, too many books had come after FM and everybody were discussing the new ones. I don't remember having been in a discussion about Kim before, but a) I am not in all discussion. In fact, I use to spend months away of discussions because they can be very intense b) I was "intense" about Susan and Maggie many times, but I promise I am trying to be calmer. I am doing my best.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Dina on March 22, 2020, 08:00:38 AM ---I have several sore spots about the books (like Susan behavior or Maggie Jr. very existence).
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While I know what your reasons for hating Maggie are and don't really "get it," for some reason it tickles me to no end. I smile just about every time you bring it up. Susan's kind of a week character (plot wise) in the first three books, and I think, that has a lot to do with why Jim "put her on a bus" in Grave Peril.
--- Quote from: Avernite on March 22, 2020, 09:01:35 AM ---I think what I would add is - Harry doesn't only learn from his mistakes, but also from his missed opportunities. Was Harry responsible for the kid in 'Warrior', that he saved from the car and abuse? No. But what he's steadily learning is that to be a true master, you can help others avoid the harshest consequences of their own mistakes. That doesn't make you responsible for their mistakes - but you are a better person for being able to do it.
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Yes. And that's kind of what I'm getting at with the question, and attempted answers, to what could he have done differently that would have been a net positive. If the answer is nothing, how can we say he is at fault? If the answer relies on hindsight, how can we say he is at fault? What degree of foresight do we require? I think blaming Harry for Kim and/or Susan* is basically taking up Ancient Mai's position in Summer Knight that, to mix my literary references, a wizard should know better.
Morris can correct me if I'm misrepresenting his position, but I think he is saying that Harry is responsible because of Harry's relationship with Kim as master/apprentice, no matter how informal it was. Harry has taken responsibility for Kim by teaching her. I can respect that position, but I don't really agree with it.
And this, or close enough to this, debate has happened since Skin Game came out.
*Her turning, not death, that's another discussion entirely.
Mira:
Yeah, well it is kind of like the responsibility we take up when we become parents. As parents supposedly we are responsible for everything our children do. That is a nice sentiment, it works when the children are young and cannot responsibly make there own decisions. The theory goes as a child matures into an adult, it can make it's own decisions based on the principles their parents taught them. Usually this holds true, but sometimes in spite of the best efforts of the parents, things go very wrong with the child. Very good parents can have a bad child, and very bad parents sometimes have a child that turns out very good. Either way, at some point the child becomes an adult and must make their own choices, who is responsible then?
morriswalters:
Harry is responsible because he took the responsibility. Nobody made him. As I've said, the metaphor of the Doom of Damocles is applicable. Once you choose to take responsibility for a warlock, you're all in, and can't get loose without finishing what you start. You either succeed with them or die with them. I know Kim isn't a warlock before anyone points it out. But the metaphor is the point. Explicitly, don't start anything with someone at this level if you aren't prepared to share the same fate as the person you choose to involve yourself with.
The Doom of Damocles is about setting the stakes in the book. It's about the level that Harry is playing at. In the Dresden Olympics you either get the Gold or a coffin. Harry's choices have consequences both for him and his allies. But that's my book, the one that I read. And if it doesn't match with the one anybody else reads, that's OK.
Bad Alias:
What's the finish line with the Doom of Damocles? Is it when the apprentice becomes a full wizard? I don't think we have the answers to these questions. The books don't say, but I don't think Eb was ever under the Doom with Harry. Harry was considered a full wizard when he killed Justin, but he was still a minor so he wasn't going to be left to his own devices. I'm sure there was more to it than that, but Harry doesn't really know what was going on then, so how can we?
Where's the finish line with the Doom analogy? What has Harry agreed to and what level of responsibility comes with that? For example, if Harry agrees to teach Kim enough to control her powers so she doesn't accidentally cause harm, what is he responsible for? Would it be a different level of responsibility than if he agreed to teach her some stuff about magic?
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