The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
Mira:
--- Quote from: Dina on March 17, 2020, 06:21:36 PM ---I've been reading the last posts (since my previous one) and I will do a summary
@Mira, I still donīt like the children metaphores.
That one is cheating, because that quote is from the files, written long after, with hindsight. The rest, yes, he predicted Kim wanted to do something dangerous and took the measures he thought would prevent that. Not telling how to do the dangerous thing. For taking one instant the oven comparison, Harry refused to tell her how to turn on the oven. It was a logical choice from his POV.
I won't say more about this because the others said it quite well :)
My last comment about rampire venom was not about the scene with Harry but about how Susan (if she knew she was able to bear a child) could have foreseen a moment when she loose control and have unprotected sex (and yes, there was a risk to kill the man. But she has been taking all the precautions she could, meditating and all that). Taking anticonception measures would have been logical.
--- End quote ---
You're right about the children metaphors. However Kim's behavior was very childish, so it applies. In the first place she seemed to be aware that what she was asking Harry was wrong. Otherwise why pile on the light charm, the flattery, then the out right bribery, because she was asking him about such a "little thing," for information only? All of it was a lie, then he realized and stopped giving her what she wanted, she threw a tantrum and stomped off. I call that pubescent behavior of the worse kind, and she wasn't a teenager.
--- Quote ---My last comment about rampire venom was not about the scene with Harry but about how Susan (if she knew she was able to bear a child) could have foreseen a moment when she loose control and have unprotected sex (and yes, there was a risk to kill the man. But she has been taking all the precautions she could, meditating and all that). Taking anticonception measures would have been logical.
--- End quote ---
Since no doubt when she got her tattoos and joined the society to fight the vamps she would have been schooled in triggers that could cause her to lose control and turn. Martin absolutely would have known, yet he let her go with him instead of changing places with her.
morriswalters:
Kim is dead, so whatever her sins in Harry's world she paid the price. Ditto for Susan. And Harry bears no responsibility for either of those deaths. There is nothing about his behavior in either case to improve. Would this be a cogent summation?
Bad Alias:
Close enough. For Susan, it's more he has no responsibility for her turning. My argument is more "what more could he have done?" You've convinced me that Harry should have broken up with Susan after the events of Fool Moon, so I'll admit he is somewhere between 1 and 5 percent responsible for her turning. The only thing I've seen suggested that is the least bit convincing as a means of preventing Kim's death is that Harry could have retreated from society, but I think that would have been much worse.
For Harry to be responsible for Kim's death he would have to have either withheld information from her that would allow her to succeed, given her information that caused her to go forward, or didn't do something that would convince her to stop. I leave the last one vague because I have no idea what should go there. I don't think he did the other two either.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Close enough. For Susan, it's more he has no responsibility for her turning. My argument is more "what more could he have done?" You've convinced me that Harry should have broken up with Susan after the events of Fool Moon, so I'll admit he is somewhere between 1 and 5 percent responsible for her turning. The only thing I've seen suggested that is the least bit convincing as a means of preventing Kim's death is that Harry could have retreated from society, but I think that would have been much worse.
--- End quote ---
He should have if and most likely would have if he didn't have such a difficult relationship with women to begin with. Before Susan the only serious relationship he ever had was with Elaine and that was kind of a pseudo incestuous affair because the sort of brother/ sister turned lover but okay because they weren't really related thing, that ended badly and I am not sure he ever completely recovered from it even now, knowing that she did survive and all... From the time he was sixteen until he met Susan at around age 26, Harry had no serious girlfriend, rarely had dates, and almost never had sex.. So when Susan first came on to him in Storm Front he couldn't believe it, and he fell for her like a ton of bricks, so let's face it, he blinded himself to the fact that though she came to love him in her own fashion, she was also using him. So for him to break up with her, in my opinion was out of the question simply because of his own emotional make up. One could argue that she should have broken up with him, being Harry's girlfriend wasn't exactly healthy, could get a girl killed or turned if she wasn't careful, but then there was all the great scoops that furthered her career.. She was like a moth to a flame, so breaking up was out of the question for her as well.. However it does explain some of the bitterness she seemed to feel towards Harry at the beginning of Changes.
--- Quote ---For Harry to be responsible for Kim's death he would have to have either withheld information from her that would allow her to succeed, given her information that caused her to go forward, or didn't do something that would convince her to stop. I leave the last one vague because I have no idea what should go there. I don't think he did the other two either.
--- End quote ---
The problem Harry ran into there once he realized what Kim was asking for, was it was illegal in the eyes of the Council.. He had just gotten the Doom lifted from his head, but there are those who'd still like it if given any excuse. Kim could lose her head over it for a number of reasons had the Council found out. Even if he had given her all the information it is doubtful that she would have succeeded because she simply didn't have the knowledge, experience, or training to pull off that level of a circle. In any case she was determined to go forward, so he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.. The only thing that might have saved her is if she had told him the whole truth about MacFinn and his plight. Harry would have insisted on going with her to fix the circle, then perhaps the circle would have been made correctly and the two of them could have fought off those who wanted it to fail and sabotaged the original circle.. But other than that, she was doomed by her own attitude.
morriswalters:
Well we obviously see this through an entirely different lens. I see Harry as learning from the mistakes or the successes of how he deals with those in his life. If he can't say I did this better, or I could have done this differently, then whats the point?
In Kim's case his takeaway might be something like, you can't be a little bit pregnant. Either go all in or don't involve yourself at all. The whole metaphor of The Doom Of Damocles is saying that if you are going to do something like take someone under your wing, then do it like your success is defined by theirs. That you share their fate.
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