The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

How to break the Lady's Mantles.

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morriswalters:
Given Harry's past interactions with women and considering his enemies, who would want to sleep with him?  It would be like sleeping with a hand grenade with a tricky fuse.  Sleeping with Lara would make perfect sense. If he detonates he gets rid of a potential problem.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: 123Chikadee on April 08, 2020, 11:35:03 PM ---@Yuillegan: Yeah, I just feel like a lot of those reasons are flimsy, even if we do need to have to know about the other characters sex lives for whatever reasons.
Honestly, I think a lot of that puritanical ideas are subconscious ones and he doesn't think too deeply about it. I'm not that wild about the ideas about sex that are put forward here, esp the idea of lust as a negative emotion.
And to be even more honest- and this is probably an unpopular opinion- but I found the Winter mantles problematic. There doesn't need to be all those rapetacular vibes for the knights, as rape isn't about sex. The 'sex' is just the means to an end so that the rapist can exert power in one of the most painful, angry way that they can. Even if the rapist believes that sex and rape go together, they're wrong. I'm getting tired of having rape and sex drive being connotative together within the series.
Plus, the idea that Molly can't have sex is weird b/c it just takes away more of her agency for titillation. It's inconsistent with what's been previously unwritten and also just isn't needed. I don't think posting links is allowed and even if it was, I wouldn't do it. But xserpx and davetheshady on tublr make much more salient points on this regarding Cold Case.
I would have thought, if keeping Winter numbers up for fighting Outsiders is needed, why don't they reproduce asexually, like some type of cell division that could be a cool bit of world building. Make the fae more alien as well.
But yeah.   

--- End quote ---

My reasons or Butcher's are flimsy?

Yeah the whole Winter mantle-rape urges, while perhaps in-keeping with the story universe (it's a bad world out there) is problematic from a message perspective. I understand why it has to be a part of Winter, and what mantles seem to hint at from a cosmic perspective. On the hand I think there should be some better discussion and development so that Harry isn't a rapebot. I agree that sex drive and rape probably shouldn't be tied together the way the series has done. However I also think that Jim is examining the grey (and rather misunderstood and taboo) world of sexual power dynamics, which is a complicated and difficult thing to do. I also do agree Molly being unable to have sex is just ridiculous and inconsistent. I feel we might be veering into Touchy Topics here, so if a mod (Griffyn612) wants to monitor/comment that might be helpful. :)

123Chikadee:
Sorry, my bad. I meant Butcher's reasons are flimsy.
Yeah, having a mod for this would be helpful. I'll try to be as concise and respectful as I can.
I do enjoy exploring those grey areas your describing, but I'm just not confidant that Butcher is doing that w/ as much self-awareness as he could be, when you compare that to how he wrote 'Cold Case'.
I see too much rape in stories that are just there to service either plot or character development when it wasn't needed or another tragic thing could be put in place of the rape. It's almost like rape as narrative device becomes its own kind of fan service in a way. 
I dunno having rape being a fixture of Winter and then having Winter being the defenders against Outsiders feels too much like letting bad things slide for the 'greater good' and that's a slippery slope right there.
Buuut, I think I'm just getting to shouty, and if I'm being a too presumptive, preaching to the choir.
On another note, I'm wondering how the Mothers can abdicate, but only one that we know of, has done it. I mean, I'm just under the impression that the knights can get out of it but not the ladies or queens. Maybe a mother's power, since its not tied to the mortal world as much, allows her to quit?

g33k:

--- Quote from: 123Chikadee on April 08, 2020, 11:35:03 PM ---... And to be even more honest- and this is probably an unpopular opinion- but I found the Winter mantles problematic. There doesn't need to be all those rapetacular vibes for the knights, as rape isn't about sex. The 'sex' is just the means to an end so that the rapist can exert power in one of the most painful, angry way that they can. Even if the rapist believes that sex and rape go together, they're wrong. I'm getting tired of having rape and sex drive being connotative together within the series ...
--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 09, 2020, 03:51:18 AM --- ... On the hand I think there should be some better discussion and development so that Harry isn't a rapebot ...
--- End quote ---

Our only other WK is Slate, for whom sexual sadism & rape seemed to be a preference.  Harry repeatedly reports the WK mantle as primarily about violence/predation & territoriality.  In a sexual context... yeah, that's pretty much "rape."

It's beyond merely icky, but "rapey AF" has been a solid & consistent portrayal of the WK-Mantle.

But no, Harry is not a "rapebot."  Emphatically not!  Remember the scenes in early Cold Days with Sarissa -- Harry deduces that (a) Mab wants him to have her, and that (b) she "technically" has given consent.  Rapebot:proceed.

Instead, Harry pursues the issue far enough to be clear that Sarissa isn't willing in a "yes means yes" sense.

Recall that Molly was offering more-than-technical consent... if anything, she was holding herself back (from trying to seduce Harry), because she feared the Mantle was preventing HIM from giving genuine consent; all Harry had to do was stop saying "no!"

Sorry, Mab:  rapebot.

The whole WK-Mantle is, in many ways, an echo of Lasciel's Shadow -- urges to pursue dark-side impulses, reduced impulse-control, lapses in judgement, etc.  The Denarian was leaning more on the anger & violence buttons.  The Mantle seems to be violence and sex.  But the situations are highly akin.

123Chikadee:
I know, its just that the rape-y stuff does not have to be in there, it really doesn't. Butcher could have gotten his points across just fine without it.
I don't think I go so far as to say Harry's a rapebot but I can see why it was said.
About Slate, yeah it's a bit chicken 'n egg as to how all that nastiness came about and I get why Harry is pushing against it so hard, so yeah, not a rapebot, but still.
Narrative-wise, no just no.

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