The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry's use of Black Magic
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on January 31, 2020, 02:50:16 PM --- There be the gray area. ;) Yes, Harry used magic to kill Justin, so he is somewhat tainted.. Harry also replied to the Ulshavaras that not all of it belonged to him and it didn't argue with him, actually complimented him on his honesty and that is why it continued to talk to him. Back to the gray area, it could very well be that any time magic is used to kill it is considered black. However it isn't practical, there are wizard's duels, which as Harry tells it, happened between him and Justin. That is two wizards trying to kill one another, lots of self defense going on. So while the White Council can't exactly condone it, neither can they condemn it because it is self defense. Now I doubt unless the wizard becomes some kind of "gun slinger" type magic dueler that this will lead to madness. Simply because Harry had no choice, yes, he knows it is wrong and considered black magic, but on the other hand he knows that it was justified.. However one has to be very careful when judging because how one sees "justified" if off can lead to madness.
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Also, I think this is where that "slippery slope" enters the psyche... even if you didn't simply murder your victim in unambiguous evil, you still killed with magic.
Your soul, in that moment, was committed to the idea that you should bend the forces of Creation to the ending of life.
Having killed already -- even in self-defense, even accidentally -- the killer knows in the very core of their being that it's possible... even easy. It becomes a much more viable option to consider.
That line has already been crossed; the tool is sitting in their toolbox of "ways that I do solve problems."
You won't ever again look at your "problems" and "solutions" in the way you did before. You are on that slippery slope. You may be keeping yourself from sliding down... but it's always an extra effort to do so, that it wasn't before.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Also, I think this is where that "slippery slope" enters the psyche... even if you didn't simply murder your victim in unambiguous evil, you still killed with magic.
Your soul, in that moment, was committed to the idea that you should bend the forces of Creation to the ending of life.
--- End quote ---
I think that is true no matter how you take a life. One can argue that killing with magic is akin to killing someone with a Crucifix, but that is more a matter of faith, because the victim is still just as dead and you took his or her life. Killing with magic for a wizard is easy, too easy, that is the slippery slope, not that it is Black Magic per say. I can make another analogy but that gets into the Second Amendment and strictly forbidden topics..
--- Quote ---That line has already been crossed; the tool is sitting in their toolbox of "ways that I do solve problems."
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But sometimes that is the only tool that can be effectively used.. It shouldn't be the first choice, but sometimes it is the only choice.
--- Quote ---You won't ever again look at your "problems" and "solutions" in the way you did before. You are on that slippery slope. You may be keeping yourself from sliding down... but it's always an extra effort to do so, that it wasn't before.
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I disagree, by your own argument it keeps you from falling further... In my mind, slippery slope means it become easier to justify so there is little to hold you back.. That is the slippery slope..
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Melriken on January 31, 2020, 06:02:21 PM ---because in order to do it with magic you must believe it is right and proper that it happen... that belief corrupts you.
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This is where we disagree. It isn't corrupting because you must believe it. It is corrupting because it's black magic. It's been strongly implied, if not outright stated, by Jim that if you accidentally kill with magic (meaning you never intended/wanted/believed death would result) there is still black magic corruption.
--- Quote ---Believing that that person should die so I can have a nicer car does something to you
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Here I thought you were saying simply acting on a belief that others should die to benefit you, even without magic, corrupts the soul. Which I assume it would, but this sort corruption isn't the sort the Wardens are concerned with.
--- Quote from: Mira on January 31, 2020, 02:50:16 PM ---there are wizard's duels, which as Harry tells it, happened between him and Justin. That is two wizards trying to kill one another, lots of self defense going on. So while the White Council can't exactly condone it, neither can they condemn it because it is self defense.
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I wouldn't say a duel involves any self defense. Self defense is repelling aggression, not mutual combat. The White Council does condemn it. That's why Harry gets the Doom of Damocles instead of execution.
The black magic corruption has nothing to do with a slippery slope of realizing options. If it did, all the veterans of the war with the RCV would be in serious trouble. They've repeatedly killed with magic. Killing humans would be a lot easier than killing vampires.
Mira:
--- Quote ---This is where we disagree. It isn't corrupting because you must believe it. It is corrupting because it's black magic. It's been strongly implied, if not outright stated, by Jim that if you accidentally kill with magic (meaning you never intended/wanted/believed death would result) there is still black magic corruptio
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Do you have the exact WOJ on this? If it is what he is driving at, then ultimately Margaret was right about the Council, they are all corrupt and are hypocrites. Eb might be the most corrupt, how many innocents did he kill when he brought down that satellite? Those that died weren't all vamps.. I doubt that you can find one wizard not tainted in some way by this standard..
--- Quote ---I wouldn't say a duel involves any self defense. Self defense is repelling aggression, not mutual combat. The White Council does condemn it. That's why Harry gets the Doom of Damocles instead of execution.
--- End quote ---
Not the way I understand it, they didn't put Harry under the Doom for dueling. Harry is a bit of a unique case and had he not had the likes of Eb defending him, he could have gotten the chop. The Doom in his case was a bit of a compromise, because half the Council refused to believe that a sixteen year old kid/apprentice could successfully defend himself against a powerful full wizard who was a warden at one time, ergo it had to have been murder. Harry was placed under the Doom, not for defending himself fairly in a duel, but because half the Council believed it was impossible that he could.. That is how he was rewarded for being that powerful and skilled, with being named a full wizard, but at the same time put under the Doom to placate those who believed it impossible.
--- Quote ---The black magic corruption has nothing to do with a slippery slope of realizing options. If it did, all the veterans of the war with the RCV would be in serious trouble. They've repeatedly killed with magic. Killing humans would be a lot easier than killing vampires.
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That sort of blows your first argument..
--- Quote ---This is where we disagree. It isn't corrupting because you must believe it. It is corrupting because it's black magic. It's been strongly implied, if not outright stated, by Jim that if you accidentally kill with magic (meaning you never intended/wanted/believed death would result) there is still black magic corruption.
--- End quote ---
It is or it isn't... One can make a stand that all forms of killing with magic deliberate or accidental is black magic, ergo all veterans of the war with the RCVs are indeed in serious trouble. Or it isn't, there are gray areas...
Arjan:
That is why they are wearing grey cloaks. Black and white do exist but there are always grey area’s. I do not think you can be a warden and avoid them completely.
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