The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Harry's use of Black Magic
morriswalters:
You're preaching to the choir. Murphy would have shot Mab if she thought Mab was going to shoot Harry. She's highly motivated in that respect.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 24, 2020, 08:15:02 AM ---You're preaching to the choir. Murphy would have shot Mab if she thought Mab was going to shoot Harry. She's highly motivated in that respect.
--- End quote ---
I know but for some reason people think Mab was moving her hand literally.
noblehunter:
One of the biggest reasons to be afraid of Mab is that she doesn't need to possess you in order to control your movements. Murphy was an agent of Mab's will but there was no magic involved.
ETA: Regarding Tolkien's cosmology, death is not when the corporeal form ceases to sustain life but when the spirit passes beyond the boundaries of the world. Elf spirits go hang out in an actual physical space in the world and can re-take physical form (I'm not sure if they do as a regular thing or if it's just limited to a few special cases). Human spirits are only around for a short time after death then they go somewhere else.
Mira:
--- Quote from: noblehunter on February 24, 2020, 02:58:37 PM ---One of the biggest reasons to be afraid of Mab is that she doesn't need to possess you in order to control your movements. Murphy was an agent of Mab's will but there was no magic involved.
ETA: Regarding Tolkien's cosmology, death is not when the corporeal form ceases to sustain life but when the spirit passes beyond the boundaries of the world. Elf spirits go hang out in an actual physical space in the world and can re-take physical form (I'm not sure if they do as a regular thing or if it's just limited to a few special cases). Human spirits are only around for a short time after death then they go somewhere else.
--- End quote ---
It gets tricky in Tolkien, according to Tolkien Gateway
--- Quote ---
The Elves did not suffer death from old age or disease, as do Men, but they could be slain by injuries and their own grief. Unlike the Valar, experiencing death (which is the separation of their fëa and hröa) violates the Elves' nature, since they were made to live as incarnate beings. The Elves were not free from change and aging, either, but they aged in a different sense than Men: the Elves became ever more weary of the world and burdened by its sorrows, and lived more in the past. In Middle-earth, their bodies would slowly be consumed by their spirits until they were little more than wraiths, in the Unseen. Yet, the Elves could escape this fate by traveling west to Aman.
The Elves are also bound to Arda and cannot escape it as long as it lasts, and can thus be reincarnated after their hröa is destroyed. When their fëa and hröa are separated, the fëa could travel to the Halls of Mandos. There they can either stay or be reincarnated with a new body identical to the previous hröa, after being released by Námo, and judged by Manwe and Varda to be absolved of any sins or regrets from their previous life. Once they were reincarnated they generally remain in Aman. There are only two Elves known to have left Aman after reincarnation, Glorfindel who was sent back to Middle-earth and Lúthien Tinúviel who was also sent back to Middle-earth as a mortal.
However, this same fact of their nature means that their fate after Arda's end is unknown; it seems that the Elves must die when Arda ends. They must rely on estel to give them hope that this will not be the case. For this reason, the envy often felt by mortals of the Elves' lifespans comes from ignorance of the nature of these lifespans.
Because the Elves can reincarnate, and because their fate after Arda's end is undiscernable, the life of the Elves is "serial longevity", not "immortality".
--- End quote ---
Murphy knew that Harry had called Mab to help against Maever, so it is unlikely that she'd think she was going to kill Harry.
I agree, Murphy was an angent of Mab's will.. It is significant that afterward Harry asked Mab twice about her killing of Maeve. The first time on the same page he merely asked if it was hard for her? He adds that she was her daughter and even with all that was at stake she had held back.. Then finally at the bottom of the page he is direct, "Was it hard for you to kill Maeve?" Mab sounds vulnerable, her answer is
--- Quote ---"I was mortal once, you know," she said, very quietly..
--- End quote ---
From the above, yes, however you want to slice it, Mab killed her daughter, and yes, it was hard because she still possesses a trace of human feeling..
Yuillegan:
Mira - pretty much what I was getting at about Tolkien Elven Immortality versus Dresden Files Immortality. Very different concepts, based on a real world belief that existed for much of history (and still does, depending on who you talk to). But both Butcher and Tolkien have transformed that into their own interpretations, which are quite different both from the source and from each other's works (although there are shades of Tolkien in Butcher's works).
As to the Mab literally, personally, physically killing Maeve debate...clearly this has to be an agree to disagree. You have your interpretation of the text, others have a different one. You are welcome to believe your interpretation of course. But I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with you on it, either. You have made your case but I think largely it has been rejected by the rest. You could be right and may well one day be vindicated, but for now let it rest. Your argument is not yet a fact - like a lot of what's in these forums we are all just speculating by and large. Let's just move on.
Noblehunter -
--- Quote from: noblehunter on February 24, 2020, 02:58:37 PM ---One of the biggest reasons to be afraid of Mab is that she doesn't need to possess you in order to control your movements. Murphy was an agent of Mab's will but there was no magic involved.
--- End quote ---
Please provide evidence of that fact. She literally says in Summer Knight (as I quoted earlier) that if a mortal ISN'T bound to her, she CANNOT override them and play puppet master. If you have any text or WOJ contradicting that, go ahead and enlighten me. Also, how can no magic be involved in Mab was puppeting Murphy? How else would she get it done? Electrodes taped to each of their brains/arms connecting them via a machine (technically possible but completely impractical and certainly not what happened in the text).
Getting back to the point of this thread: Harry using Black Magic. He has had a few instances we know of, however he appears to be not going full Warlock as they seem to be limited. Hard to tell though considering all the other things vying for his soul/sanity. Why isn't the taint affecting him OR how much black magic does it take before you go Warlock? The White Council seems to think that one violation is dangerous enough, with the pure exception of self-defense under very specific circumstances (and of course the Blackstaff..but that's a whole other thing). Perhaps it all about how much power goes to your head? When you start trying to shape the universe to your will? In fairness, that essentially is magic (enforcing your will to override the universe whether for good or bad reasons). Maybe it only really applies when your start trying to override other mortals Free Will (or take away their choices).
And another thing...in earlier books Harry noticed he had some taint in his own magic. Where do we think he is now compared to then? More or less?
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