The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Peace talks excerpt indications
Mira:
--- Quote ---As to your second point, it could also be argued that without Eb's specific code, Harry would have been living a much easier life, and not endangering himself at all. Harry's code is part of the reason he doesn't fit into the hero's journey. He only refuses the call when it's a, in his opinion, bad guy who makes the call to adventure. If he didn't have that ethos, he wouldn't be risking his life left and right. He also wouldn't be putting himself in situations that lead to temptation.
--- End quote ---
Whether or not without Eb's code Harry would be living an easier life is beside the point. Mentors
teach a way to live one's life or how to do something specific, the object of the mentoring isn't to make life easier, example being Yoda's teaching about the Force to Luke, Obi-Wan's also, their object wasn't to make life easier for Luke they were teaching him how to do it without going to the darkside.
--- Quote ---Eb's code isn't Eb. It's a part of Harry's character by the time we meet him. Harry's time with Eb is part of Harry's "Ordinary World."
--- End quote ---
It doesn't matter, were it not for Eb's mentoring, Harry wouldn't be the character we know.
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Mira on February 16, 2020, 02:00:52 PM ---Whether or not without Eb's code Harry would be living an easier life is beside the point. Mentors
teach a way to live one's life or how to do something specific, the object of the mentoring isn't to make life easier, example being Yoda's teaching about the Force to Luke, Obi-Wan's also, their object wasn't to make life easier for Luke they were teaching him how to do it without going to the darkside.
It doesn't matter, were it not for Eb's mentoring, Harry wouldn't be the character we know.
--- End quote ---
This all just makes Eb 'a' mentor. Someone who taught Harry things. But that doesn't make him THE mentor of a hero's journey who needs to die (or be disabled) to progress the story.
Harry has, if anything, already been promoted past Eb; The Warden and The Winterknight both don't answer to the Senior Council officially. Rashid may be considered a clearer sort of authority over Harry, as the Gatekeeper role is somewhat ahead of the Knight in Faery meaning (even if it's not so clear in Winter) and of course he's still the boss of Harry-the-Wizard.
But Eb? The last time Eb gave Harry advice/an order, Harry flaunted it and blew up the Red Court. And signed up with Winter instead.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mira on February 16, 2020, 02:00:52 PM ---Whether or not without Eb's code Harry would be living an easier life is beside the point. Mentors
teach a way to live one's life or how to do something specific, the object of the mentoring isn't to make life easier.
--- End quote ---
Your point was that Eb's code has kept Harry alive. I'm saying that Eb's code has done more to endanger him than to keep him alive. So that Harry's life would be easier without Eb's code is entirely the point.
--- Quote from: Mira on February 16, 2020, 02:00:52 PM ---It doesn't matter, were it not for Eb's mentoring, Harry wouldn't be the character we know.
--- End quote ---
It does matter as to the point you are arguing with. That point is whether or not Eb is the Mentor in a hero's journey structural way. If he isn't, the argument that the Mentor must die, Eb is the mentor, so Eb must die doesn't hold water. And that's putting aside that the premise "the Mentor must die" is false.
--- Quote from: Avernite on February 16, 2020, 02:17:47 PM ---This all just makes Eb 'a' mentor. Someone who taught Harry things. But that doesn't make him THE mentor of a hero's journey.
--- End quote ---
Exactly.
--- Quote from: Avernite on February 16, 2020, 02:17:47 PM ---THE mentor of a hero's journey who needs to die (or be disabled) to progress the story.
--- End quote ---
For the record, since my original point is that a hero's journey analysis of DF doesn't in any way point to Eb dying, the mentor dying (or being disabled) isn't part of the hero's journey.
Mira:
--- Quote ---It does matter as to the point you are arguing with. That point is whether or not Eb is the Mentor in a hero's journey structural way. If he isn't, the argument that the Mentor must die, Eb is the mentor, so Eb must die doesn't hold water. And that's putting aside that the premise "the Mentor must die" is false.
--- End quote ---
Huh? You seem to be contradicting yourself.. Harry has had many mentors, several are still alive, Eb and I believe Rashid as well.. A couple are dead, Justin and I think you can count Shiro in as a mentor as well though briefly, but his impact was great.
Bad Alias:
Merriam Webster's mentor and the hero's journey's mentor are two completely different things. Mentor is generally defined as "an experienced and trusted person who gives another person advice and help, esp. related to work or school, over a period of time." When speaking in the context of the hero's journey, the mentor refers to whatever the hero needs to change his mind after he has refused the call to adventure and go forth and succeed. In this context, the mentor can be a character trait, an object, a person, or literally anything else.
People often assume that the mentor in this context is a person who has to die so the hero can't rely on the person for help and must go forth on his adventure. This is a misunderstanding of both the hero's journey and what is meant by the mentor. For example, in Star Wars Luke refuses the call by telling Obi-Wan that he can't leave the farm. The Empire murders his family. Luke then decides to take up the call to adventure. Here the murder of Luke's family is the mentor, not Obi-Wan.
Many on the forum argue that Eb is Harry's mentor, so he must die in keeping with the structure of the hero's journey. This is wrong for two reasons. First Eb isn't a mentor in the hero's journey sense. Eb has never shown up to Harry and caused Harry to take up the call to adventure after Harry has refused it. This means that Eb is not Harry's mentor in the hero's journey sense. Second, the death of the mentor isn't a step in the hero's journey. Let's go back to Star Wars. What would the death of the mentor even mean? That Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen come back to life? That's preposterous.
Because Eb isn't a mentor and the mentor doesn't have to die, the argument that (premise 1): Eb is the mentor, (premise 2): the mentor has to die, so (conclusion): Eb will die, is wrong. Both premises are false. The conclusion cannot be reached because of the premises. The conclusion may be true for completely different reasons, but not because of the mentor/hero's journey argument.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version