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didymos:

--- Quote from: Mira on April 15, 2020, 03:41:14 AM ---  Maybe as a hope that it wouldn't hurt her, Lea had said she was protected. 

--- End quote ---

He knew she wasn't protected from steel. He had no hope that she was:


--- Quote ---His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.

Butcher, Jim. Changes (The Dresden Files, Book 12) (p. 517). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
--- End quote ---

Mira:

--- Quote from: didymos on April 15, 2020, 05:40:07 AM ---He knew she wasn't protected from steel. He had no hope that she was:

--- End quote ---

   No one is arguing that point, the point is it made no difference to the outcome.  Susan didn't attack Martin because she thought she was protected from steel.

g33k:

--- Quote from: Mira on April 14, 2020, 06:25:05 PM ---  In my opinion it was still manipulation, open manipulation to be sure, but that is what it was.
--- End quote ---

It was... manipulation-adjacent?

I mean, it was just telling the truth.  Harry being Harry, she didn't have to "spin it" or "manipulate" Harry in any active fashion...

I mean:  tell a guy (with a MAJOR white-knight-complex AND parent/orphan issues) that he's a Daddy and his most-hated (and known child-murdering) enemies have kidnapped his daughter for nefarious purpose...

"Just the facts, ma'am."

It's not "manipulating" the dyamite to light it's fuse, but a consequence DOES obviously follow one from the other.

We could argue -- and maybe should -- that even "un-spun facts" can be de facto "manipulation" in some circumstances... such as those, if any!

Susan took away Harry's choice, in that phone call, every bit as much as Harry took hers, when he made her realize that Martin was behind Maggie's kidnapping.

Mira:

--- Quote ---
Susan took away Harry's choice, in that phone call, every bit as much as Harry took hers, when he made her realize that Martin was behind Maggie's kidnapping.
--- End quote ---

Yes.   It is also interesting that she went to him for help with little Maggie after keeping the knowledge that she had even existed from him for the past six years.  Her excuse?  Harry would have been a danger to their child.  She put a real guilt trip on him.

Arjan:

--- Quote from: Mira on April 15, 2020, 09:41:07 PM ---Yes.   It is also interesting that she went to him for help with little Maggie after keeping the knowledge that she had even existed from him for the past six years.  Her excuse?  Harry would have been a danger to their child.  She put a real guilt trip on him.

--- End quote ---
Who else could she go for help? She should have involved Harry earlier, not never.

I do not see some clever manipulation going on, just flawed individuals making errors in a difficult situation. Harry would have been a danger but she was a danger too.

And Susan did not put a guilt trip on Harry. Harry was not feeling guilt about the situation. He correctly identified Susan’s guilt in hiding the child from him but choose not to dwell on it because they both shared the overwhelming desire to save their daughter. There were dangerous emotions but that were emotions they shared. No clever manipulation going on.

They both would manipulate to save their daughter, no doubt about that but really until that stuff with Martin’s dagger there was no need for it.

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