Author Topic: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.  (Read 5991 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2020, 07:55:33 PM »
And there is enough contradictory material to argue that we don't know the origin of the Black Court. What's said in the books conflicts with some of the WoJ about it...

But the "facts" in the books are clearly & explicitly from the POV's of the characters, and limited by their biases and by what they know, including false information that they "know."

WoJ is explicitly clear about the origin of the BC (with support for that account hinted-at in various books; the fact that other origins are hinted-at only confirms that the characters themselves do not know the true facts ... ).
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...Dracula was <Drakul's> half-human child, who ... creat(ed) himself as the first Black Court Vampire...
(https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/)

The only supportable idea that we "don't know the origin of the BC" is the possibility (very unlikely, IMHO; but not impossible!!!) that Jim has decided to actively deceive the fans, presumably so he can spring a surprise alternate-origin...  We do have WoJ that he admits to a few active lies to the fans, in the furtherance of dramatic tension &c in the DF series... or maybe just his own twisted amusement... whatever: so long as he keeps on writing Dresden, we forgive him!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 11:31:56 PM by g33k »

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2020, 08:06:56 PM »
@g33k: I feel like you completely ignored both the link and my sentence saying I don't subscribe to the "if it isn't in the books, it didn't happen" mentality. Said mentality is a supportable idea that we "don't know the origin of the BC." Jim has gone back on WoJ before, said things that were clearly incorrect, and explained that it does happen because he has at least six or seven versions of each book in his mind. I'm not sure if that should be counted as another "idea" or just support for the anti-WoG mentality.
See generally https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod. I generally take WoJ at face value, though.

Offline g33k

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Re: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2020, 08:17:36 PM »
@g33k: I feel like you completely ignored both the link and my sentence saying I don't subscribe to the "if it isn't in the books, it didn't happen" mentality. Said mentality is a supportable idea that we "don't know the origin of the BC." Jim has gone back on WoJ before, said things that were clearly incorrect, and explained that it does happen because he has at least six or seven versions of each book in his mind. I'm not sure if that should be counted as another "idea" or just support for the anti-WoG mentality.

Hmm.  I'm unclear, reading this...

On the one hand, you say:
Quote
I don't subscribe to the "if it isn't in the books, it didn't happen" mentality
which (stripping out the double negative) I interpret to mean that you prefer to consider both the books AND the WoJ sources.

On the other hand, you said: 
Quote
Jim has gone back on WoJ before, said things that were clearly incorrect, and explained that it does happen because he has at least six or seven versions of each book in his mind. I'm not sure if that should be counted as another "idea" or just support for the anti-WoG mentality.
  And the link to the tvtropes seems to be how "WoG" content is dubious at best.

So, ummm... I feel like you've prompted me to engage further with you, but I honestly don't know what to be SAYING; I don't understand your POV, to speak to it.  I think I'd better go take more caffeine!

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2020, 10:26:56 PM »
I think WoJ should be considered at least as authoritative as the texts (unless we have good reason to believe otherwise, like he said something before book X and the opposite happens in book X).

On the other hand, I'm not willing to say that someone who says "if it isn't in the books, it didn't happen is wrong." The tv tropes link is just to demonstrate that this is a belief people have (including literary professor types).

Quote
Jim has gone back on WoJ before, said things that were clearly incorrect, and explained that it does happen because he has at least six or seven versions of each book in his mind. I'm not sure if that should be counted as another "idea" or just support for the anti-WoG mentality.
My point here is that Jim has basically stated that he is often an unreliable narrator even if he isn't intentionally being deceptive. This admission could be evidence in support of the WoG isn't canon position or as support of a "we need to be cautious about it" position.

Offline Con

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Re: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2020, 05:08:14 AM »
Well my original quote that gave the notion was from Michael in text, at Bianca's Ball immediately after having run into Ferrovax and talking about Siriothrax. So even if you doubt or disregard the WOJ entirely, there's still in text reference.

Besides which Ebenezar later confirms the Dracula teenage rebellion thing in Blood Rites.

Most common theory about Black Court is that they are tied or created to something wholly evil. Appathetic at best, outright bloodthirsty at worst. Usually this is taken as meaning they are tied to Outsiders, which is a more than possible way that Dracula tried to boost himself to Daddy Dragon dear Drakul's level.

However the fact remains Michael in his role as KotC considers them to be 'Blood of the Dragon'.

Offline g33k

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Re: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2020, 05:29:10 PM »
I think WoJ should be considered at least as authoritative as the texts (unless we have good reason to believe otherwise, like he said something before book X and the opposite happens in book X).

On the other hand, I'm not willing to say that someone who says "if it isn't in the books, it didn't happen is wrong." The tv tropes link is just to demonstrate that this is a belief people have (including literary professor types).
My point here is that Jim has basically stated that he is often an unreliable narrator even if he isn't intentionally being deceptive. This admission could be evidence in support of the WoG isn't canon position or as support of a "we need to be cautious about it" position.

TYVM for clarifying!

I'm gonna go ahead and reiterate, though, that we DO reliably know the origin of BCV's.  We have sets of interlinked and mutually-reinforcing indicators that all go the same way; and it's rather clear that this is a substantive and significant bit of backstory/setting.  I think it's very clear inside Jim's head.

I don't think it's subject to some of Jim's occasionally-multi-streamed ideas about some of the books.

I'll freely admit, however, that it's still possible that Jim is actively lying in order to blindside the fans alongside Harry...
 

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Re: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2020, 04:53:03 AM »
TYVM for clarifying!

...

I think it's very clear inside Jim's head.
You're welcome.

My main point was that "what's inside Jim's head doesn't matter until it's on the page" is a valid interpretive model. I just disagree with that model. Mostly.

What's in Jim's head matters more now that it would if he wasn't writing anymore DF books because it is likely to inform where he's going. He still can put whatever's in his head in the new books. But some pronouncements from authors strain credulity. For example, I don't put a lot of faith in pronouncements from J.K. Rowling that "that character was always [insert most recent political fetish] even though I didn't put a single thing in the books to indicate that."

Offline g33k

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Re: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2020, 06:53:40 PM »
My main point was that "what's inside Jim's head doesn't matter until it's on the page" is a valid interpretive model. I just disagree with that model. Mostly.

What's in Jim's head matters more now that it would if he wasn't writing anymore DF books because it is likely to inform where he's going.

Well, here's the thing:  Jim has his own "headcanon" of stuff that's going on, simultaneously with the DF stories he writes.  He narrates the Harry-POV account of events (or sometimes other narrators, in the shorts), cackling insanely as he DOESN'T write down the narrations of the Evil Genius'es who are operating undetected, behind Harry's back and right under Harry's nose.

But that stuff really DOESN'T matter to those already-written books.  The books stand as they are (until/unless Jim goes back to do a re-write / re-release, to eliminate Early Installment Wierdness, to alter some clue-drops to more accurately reflect what Harry would have known, etc etc etc); they are bound volumes, with no headcanon enclosed.  I DO admit that it's GOING to matter in future books (although by that time, "today's" Jim-Headcanon may have evolved into something very different!).

Except it DOES matter, right now... to a few obsessive fans who analyze and dissect and WAG about it, and write way too much, way too often, in dingy little forums (with apologies to @Griffyn612) deep in the bowels of the Internet.   ;D

One of our chief problems, frankly, is Jim:  we're trying to dissect Jim's headcanon.  It's like the game Battleship, where we make our guesses and WAGs, and call them out on AMA's and Con events and bookstore events &c.  And sometimes Jim answers, and sometimes he doesn't, and sometimes he overtly lies, and sometimes his headcanon actually changes:  he moves his ships around on the board!!!


... For example, I don't put a lot of faith in pronouncements from J.K. Rowling that "that character was always [insert most recent political fetish] even though I didn't put a single thing in the books to indicate that.

Speaking as someone who read the books as they came out (well... I was a year late to begin; but otherwise ...), and someone who's a straight male raised before the days when very many folks accepted gays:  I found the "Dumbledore is gay, and he & Grindelwald were a couple" to be 100% on-point; it settled the character, resolving issues I had found odd and/or incongruous.  Some of the other pronouncements from Rowling... yeahNO, not really feelin' it, very WTFish!

I was shocked that "Dumbledore is gay" caused so much uproar, because I found it such a "well, duh, of course he is!" element.
 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 06:58:37 PM by g33k »

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Drakul/Dracula- Blood of the Dragon.
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2020, 02:00:38 AM »
I don't really pay attention to Rowling. I'm mostly assuming it goes way past just the Dumbledore is gay thing because of the meme. For examples see https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/01/30/how-jk-rowlings-endless-updates-harry-potter-became-meme/; https://mashable.com/article/jk-rowling-no-one-meme-harry-potter/.

Except it DOES matter, right now... to a few obsessive fans who analyze and dissect and WAG about it, and write way too much, way too often, in dingy little forums (with apologies to @Griffyn612) deep in the bowels of the Internet.   ;D
(Emphasis added). Basically the same reason I argue for positions I don't even agree with.