Author Topic: Denarian Shadows  (Read 13617 times)

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2020, 07:34:15 PM »
The reality is that Lasciel is in Hades's Vault forever, permanently, for all eternity. Unless Jim decides he needs Lasciel down the line for reasons (maybe the Denarians will play a major role in the BAT, for instance, and we'll get to see all thirty in Hell's Bells), at which point "eternity" just meant "for several books." Then he'll justify her Coin getting recirculated in whatever way best fits the story (Nicodemus very well might've snatched it before fleeing during Skin Game, as some of you have suggested. Or someone could summon her. Or whatever. It honestly almost doesn't matter.)

But, if he never needs to use Lasciel again, then her fate is to lie in that Vault forever.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I feel the same way about Cat Sith. He's dead unless Jim decides he isn't, at which point Sith will have been rescued or Deus Ex Machina-ed back to life.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2159
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2020, 08:26:49 PM »
The reality is that Lasciel is in Hades's Vault forever, permanently, for all eternity.
Nope.

The reality is those coins are meant to be in circulation.  Not even Hades can keep them out of play.

... Unless Jim decides ... Then he'll justify her Coin getting recirculated in whatever way best fits the story ... Or whatever. It honestly almost doesn't matter...
This, of course!  You're spot-on, here.

Ultimately, the story goes however Jim says it goes.  He could leave the coin in the vault; he could have it already out and circulating; he could leave it there, and pull it out when he wants it back.  Maybe he has HARRY summon the Coin!

Similarly, Lasciel could be out and circulating (on the "meant to be in circulation" grounds), but we may never see her again if Jim decides a "Harry/Lasciel rematch" would be too much travelling the same ground.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2159
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2020, 08:30:19 PM »
The story doesn't need Lasciel, there is plenty of her in Bonny along with Harry's Id, he will be fighting against their influence as much as he will be calling on them to help.   I believe that has been hinted at by Jim.

Lasciel isn't Lash.  Bonnie has some of Lash in her; there may be some Lash-influence coming forward, as you say.  That isn't Lasciel.

Lasciel will show up in the stories if Jim wants to have her there... my guess is that he does, and so she will.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2020, 02:59:12 AM »
@ g33k: Why do you see Jim wanting Lasciel back in the story? I ask because I just don't see any story for her. There are plenty of characters I feel have threads hanging to be tugged on. Lasciel just isn't one of them.

Jim has made comments that make me think Cat Sith is coming back. Additionally, when a character supernatural being "dies" by falling into water, they usually come back.

I agree with Kindler that Lasciel is stuck in Hades' Vault for the "duration" ... unless Jim wants her out. By the "duration," I mean the rest of the series/BAT.

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2020, 03:36:57 PM »
Nope.

The reality is those coins are meant to be in circulation.  Not even Hades can keep them out of play.
This, of course!  You're spot-on, here.

Ultimately, the story goes however Jim says it goes.  He could leave the coin in the vault; he could have it already out and circulating; he could leave it there, and pull it out when he wants it back.  Maybe he has HARRY summon the Coin!

Similarly, Lasciel could be out and circulating (on the "meant to be in circulation" grounds), but we may never see her again if Jim decides a "Harry/Lasciel rematch" would be too much travelling the same ground.

The point is that Lasciel's part in the story has ended. Unless and until Jim decides to put her back into the story, the Coin is in the Vault. She can come out of the Vault if Jim wants her to—she doesn't even have to show up. Just a throwaway line from Nic or whoever saying something about removing the Coin from the Vault is enough to remove her from there. But unless and until that happens, that's where the Coin remains.

Just because the Coins are meant to be in circulation doesn't mean that they can't be removed from circulation—at least for so long that it's essentially the same thing. Enduring until the heat death of the universe or the apocalypse is kinda indistinguishable from "forever" for practical purposes, even if those events happen within a few decades.

The Coins' ability to stay "free" mostly seems to rely upon variables that can be manipulated—almost like an entropy curse. But there have to be things that can be manipulated for it to happen—breaking an aquarium's glass wall, for instance, and a gentle shift along the Coin's axis can send it rolling toward an unsuspecting mortal, like we saw. Held within the Church's version of Area 51, you've got various people you can manipulate (apparently responsible for Nicodemus recovering about 50% of lost Coins), along with environmental effects, electrical circuits to disrupt, fires to start, weather, etc. Plenty to work with.

In Hades's Vault, there's rock, treasure, shades, and a god so badass he wears a crown made out of Deathstone. Yes, mortals can reach the Vault with enough badassery of their own, but we all saw the kind of team it took to get there.

The only way the Coins (remember the Genoskwa had one too, and I don't know if Nic thought to grab his on his way out) had anything to work with at all was at the moment of their hosts' deaths. If Hannah's Coin squirted out through a gap in the molten rocks from the pressure and landed on a pile of other coins, sure, Nic could've grabbed it when he skedaddled. I find it more likely that he grabbed Genny's after Harry got him pancaked—that's something Anduriel's shadow can do, being two-dimensional and all.

But the point is that, unless Nic grabbed Lasciel's Coin somehow, doubling back to the Vault after escaping Michael and Harry, it just doesn't have anything around it to work with that would get it into mortal hands. It's no longer on the mortal plane at all. It'll stay there until another crew decides to pull a heist.

More importantly, it'll stay there until Jim needs it to be elsewhere. It's just too much of a stretch for me to really think otherwise unless it's stated in the text. Speculation is dope, and I encourage it; there are plenty of fun ways to imagine the Coin is out there wreaking further havoc still. But there's just too much against the idea for it to be really feasible to me without confirmation.

Lasciel will show up in the stories if Jim wants to have her there... my guess is that he does, and so she will.
I don't know what Lasciel would add to the main case files. Her arc feels rather complete. We saw her shadow's arc play out between Death Masks and White Night. We saw the aftereffects for several books beyond that. Then we saw what it looks like when Lasciel's temptations work, from an outsider's perspective. And we saw Harry dish out karmic justice (pretty directly, too; he used Hannasciel's magic against her). That felt pretty final to me. Having her return to the main series would just feel kinda like retreading the same ground. Considering that Jim wants to start tightening up future novels, I'd say that yet another round with Lasciel would constitute unnecessary bloat, the type of which you'd want to trim.

The BAT is a different story, though (heh, possibly literally). I have zero doubt that the Fallen will play a big role in the Apocalypse. Lasciel could have a role there.

But where we are in the series, I'm not even sure the Denarians are going to return before the BAT. If they do, it'll be one more round, probably around book 20 (could be the very last one, which might be as late as book 22). It depends on how the next book shakes out, in my opinion; I fully anticipate Peace Talks will be setting the stage for the remaining players for the series and positioning everyone for the last minute scramble before the music stops. Nicky and His Superpals will probably show up before the case files ends, but it's possible they'll be offstage until the apocalypses kick off. (In which case, my WAG is that the order of the BAT is 1. Hell's Bells, 2. Stars and Stones, 3. Empty Night; Hell's Bells will start with the apocalypse of Revelations (or the Dresdenverse equivalent) and the Denarians' role will be center stage.)


Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24057
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2020, 04:14:00 PM »
Quote
The point is that Lasciel's part in the story has ended. Unless and until Jim decides to put her back into the story, the Coin is in the Vault. She can come out of the Vault if Jim wants her to—she doesn't even have to show up. Just a throwaway line from Nic or whoever saying something about removing the Coin from the Vault is enough to remove her from there. But unless and until that happens, that's where the Coin remains.

It has, and reintroducing her has diminishing returns, her affecting Harry's despair and prompting his suicide in Changes worked.    Having Hannah take up the coin in Skin Game wasn't effective in my opinion, mainly because we had nothing emotionally invested in her.  The show down was a let down because in my opinion it didn't live up to the "woman scorned" hype..

 Now if Jim had gone the Murphy taking up the coin route, it would shocked some, pissed off many, and begged the question, what in the hell does  Harry do now because the most trusted friend he had in the world, the woman he loves, has become an enemy..  It could have been the topic for a whole novel..

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2159
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2020, 09:26:21 PM »
@ g33k: Why do you see Jim wanting Lasciel back in the story? I ask because I just don't see any story for her. There are plenty of characters I feel have threads hanging to be tugged on. Lasciel just isn't one of them...
... Now if Jim had gone the Murphy taking up the coin route, it would shocked some, pissed off many, and begged the question, what in the hell does  Harry do now because the most trusted friend he had in the world, the woman he loves, has become an enemy..  It could have been the topic for a whole novel..

This, for one (Mira's notion).  That story is still available, notwithstanding the H.Ascher arc.

I think Lasciel could go (in a usefully-Doylist manner) to one of Harry's already-trusted people.  Murphy, Elaine, etc.  Agent Tilly (though I'd hate that).  Justine, to rig a Thomas/Harry schism.  Etc.
 
I'm not committed to the rematch; I'm not convinced it's happening.  I just think we'll see her again; it "feels" to me like Jim has more to say there.  I'm not sure what that is, or what it looks like.

Maybe Harry calls the coin in extremis -- Maggie is about to die, he needs a powerup RIGHT NOW (we already know he'll make a deal he hates, to save his baby... he picked Mab over Lasciel because he had more hope of tricking Mab, but it seemed clear he'd have gone with Lasciel if Mab weren't dealing).

That'd be a new storyline -- not just the Shadow in his head, but the actual Fallen!

= = =

As I say -- I'm not convinced it'll happen, I just think it more-likely-than-not.  And as Kindler says, the BAT looks likely to feature the Fallen prominently, so then if not before.  Maybe Lasciel is out-and-about, but just stays offscreen of the Case Files stories, until the BAT.

I'm convinced that she'll be back in circulation from a Dresdenverse perspective, because that's what the coins do.  I'm not convinced she'll get any screen-time in Harry Dresden's story.
 

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2020, 09:45:10 PM »
That all seems too close to something we've seen before to me, and I can see better ways of doing the new parts.

Offline Regenbogen

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1150
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2020, 11:09:37 PM »
Quote
from Mira:
Now if Jim had gone the Murphy taking up the coin route, it would shocked some, pissed off many, and begged the question, what in the hell does  Harry do now because the most trusted friend he had in the world, the woman he loves, has become an enemy..  It could have been the topic for a whole novel..
I can't get that dream in Skin Game out of my head. Yes, Lasciel appeared at the end, but I think Harry should just believe that's what the dream meant. But why was it Murphy with the second set of eyes?

I think Nic retrieved the Lashiel's coin during the fight, got secretly into the hospital to uncounscious Murphy, made her skin make contact with the coin without her knowing it, and so made sure, a shadow was created.
I mean, Murphy is the perfect victim now. The hard times she had losing her job, her purpose, her identity and then losing Harry, finding him again, and then being crippled. Maybe she will never be the same again. Can't walk well, not without pain, can't fight any more.
Perfect circumstances for a shadow she doesn't even know about to start influencing her into finally taking up the coin. To end the pain, to become strong again and useful.
Maybe she will take up the coin somewhere during Peace Talks or some time later, when enough time has passed and she had realized, that she won't get any better. Maybe she won't be aware of the shadow for a long time. Lashiel can be subtle.
Becoming a Knight of the Blackened Denarius is not the end. They can be redeemed. So she would not be hopelessly lost. Harry would try to get her back.
In Peace Talks there might be some personal happiness with Harry and Karrin as a couple, with Maggie and Bonnie but we all know, Harry is not supposed to be happy in the long run. It would not fit with what Jim has written so far.
So I think, yes, Murphy as a Denarian will hurt, but it won't be a hopeless situation. And I would totally understand her taking up Lasciel for getting stronger in her current situation.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24057
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2020, 05:16:21 AM »
Quote
This, for one (Mira's notion).  That story is still available, notwithstanding the H.Ascher arc.

Hopefully, but go to the well too many times and the arc loses it's impact. 

The point is the whole "woman scorned" buildup fell like a lame thud than a bomb shell.  We the
readers didn't know Hannah Ascher, so she became a mere vehicle for the Lasciel/Harry confrontation and fight which went on and ended like most of Harry's one on one battles, no real emotional price for Harry to pay so where is the revenge?   Harry felt attraction towards Hannah, but it was mostly physical, the "build up" with her overt overtures towards Harry were rather lame and rushed.  So the battle came down to pissed off fallen angel in a young bitter woman who had some scores to settle verses Harry..

  I agree Harry's nightmare about Murphy having a coin was haunting, to carry it through might have worked better than the fight between her and Nic ending with a Holy Sword broken..  Or better yet Harry realizing that Murphy not only was carrying a coin, but she had control of one of the Swords as well...   Now that really would have tied Harry's shorts in a real knot...   Worse yet for our hero, is
if Murphy/Lasciel survived to fight another day, not just having to meet her again, but Nic using her
as a weapon against him.. That could have gone on for several books.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 02:30:32 PM by Mira »

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2020, 06:10:00 PM »
Obviously Harry is dreaming of Murphy.  His subconscious used the dream figure it had to call out the danger he faced.  I guess Harry didn't have any dreams about sexual fantasies involving Hanna, being an old fashioned kind of a guy.  And there is no support for the idea that a coin with a rider can put a shadow in someone else.  Of course Jim could make me a liar. ;)

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24057
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2020, 07:54:12 PM »
Obviously Harry is dreaming of Murphy.  His subconscious used the dream figure it had to call out the danger he faced.  I guess Harry didn't have any dreams about sexual fantasies involving Hanna, being an old fashioned kind of a guy.  And there is no support for the idea that a coin with a rider can put a shadow in someone else.  Of course Jim could make me a liar. ;)

No, but Hannah tried to put the sexual whammy on Harry a couple of times with little effect.  As I said neither Harry nor the reader had much sentiment invested in poor Hannah.   The confrontation with Harry may have worked better if there hadn't been the "woman scorned" build up. 

Yeah, we all know about the Murphy warning dream, but all that did was highlight the weakness of the Hannah/Lasciel, Harry confrontation. 

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2020, 07:46:02 PM »
I think Nic retrieved the Lashiel's coin during the fight, got secretly into the hospital to uncounscious Murphy, made her skin make contact with the coin without her knowing it, and so made sure, a shadow was created.
I'm pretty sure Murphy would have too choose to touch the coin for a shadow to be created. Otherwise, Denarians would just throw the coins at people like Marcone and Ivy.

I think Harry had to have the dream about Murphy because if he had it about Hannah, it would have been way too obvious.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2159
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2020, 10:30:41 PM »
I'm pretty sure Murphy would have too choose to touch the coin for a shadow to be created. Otherwise, Denarians would just throw the coins at people like Marcone and Ivy.
I think there's a lot of unclarity on what it takes to make a Shadow.

For example, the Denarians had Marcone and Ivy all tied up; they could have just touched a coin to their skin.  In an earlier book, Nic tried to recruit Harry with a Coin... but never actually touched the Coin to him.  The implication is that it takes someone knowing and intentional; someone who is rejecting/unwilling gets no Shadow.

OTOH, Michael reports that Knight's children have been lured/tricked into taking a Coin; it's apparently a popular Denarian tactic...  Or maybe that's just disinformation planted by the Denarians.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24057
    • View Profile
Re: Denarian Shadows
« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2020, 10:41:18 PM »
I think there's a lot of unclarity on what it takes to make a Shadow.

For example, the Denarians had Marcone and Ivy all tied up; they could have just touched a coin to their skin.  In an earlier book, Nic tried to recruit Harry with a Coin... but never actually touched the Coin to him.  The implication is that it takes someone knowing and intentional; someone who is rejecting/unwilling gets no Shadow.

OTOH, Michael reports that Knight's children have been lured/tricked into taking a Coin; it's apparently a popular Denarian tactic...  Or maybe that's just disinformation planted by the Denarians.

Remember in Death Masks all the Knights were careful not to touch them and warned Harry against
it.  However they were picking up the coins which is voluntary contact, where as touching a captive with one is involuntary,  one suggests accepting the coin  somewhere down the road so an opening, where as being touched with one is less so.