The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Denarian Shadows
Regenbogen:
Some quotes I found about the coins:
Proven Guilty Ch. 47 Michael:
“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”
White Night, Ch. 9 Lash:
“Then rid yourself of me. Take up the coin, and I will rejoin the rest of myself, whole again. You will be well rid of me.”
Small Favor, Ch. 38 Michael and Harry
“Because in two thousand years, no one has rid themselves of the shadow of one of the Fallen—except by accepting the demon into them entirely, taking up the coin, and living to feel remorse and discarding it. And you claim that you never took up the coin.” “That’s right,” I said. “Then either the shadow is still there,” Michael said, “still twisting your thoughts. Still whispering to you. Or you’re lying to me about taking up the coin. Those are the only options.”
So, what do we know?
1. Touching a Blackened Denarius enables the shadow of the Denarian to enter your mind. Once inside it starts to talk you into accepting the Fallen (given that the person touching the coin had not planned accepting the Fallen in the first place).
2. Once the Fallen is accepted, the shadow is gone/ reunited with it's original.
3. If a wizard is "infected" with a Fallen's shadow without accepting the Fallen, the only way to get rid of the shadow would be, according to Michael, to "set aside" his "power". He doesn't say " magic", though I would assume it means magic. It could be another power, but honestly, that doesn't make sense to me.
A solution for this case is not provided for non-wizards, as it seems. Except "power" means something other than "magic". At least Michael doesn't know or tell. And why should he? Harry is a wizard and hasn't asked anyway.
4. Another way to get rid of the shadow would be taking up the coin, accepting the Fallen and then giving up the coin.
This would also work for non-wizards.
I haven't found anything else concerning getting rid of the shadows in the books. So if not for #4, we can only guess how it could work for " muggles".
Also I agree that we cannot be sure that Michael really knows everything about it. Or that Lash is telling the truth, when she tells Harry that no shadow has stayed that long without the host taking up the coin.
My thoughts:
before Skin Game I didn't believe Lash was really gone. I believed she was just shut away in the damaged part of Harry's brain, unable to be detected and unable to contact him. Until after some years the brain has healed. Then she would be back.
But then came Skin Game. Lasciel is now in a new host.
First I thought, OK, wrong theory.
But now I ask myself:
What happens to a shadow if it's original Fallen is accepted into another host?
Has this been asked before?
If the shadow vanishes in this case, that would be another possibility for a "muggle" to get rid of it without accepting the coin: giving the coin to someone else. Not a morally acceptable solution, but maybe a working one.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Regenbogen on December 17, 2019, 10:18:34 PM --- ...
But now I ask myself:
What happens to a shadow if it's original Fallen is accepted into another host?
Has this been asked before?
--- End quote ---
I believe each Shadow is entirely separate from its Fallen. An imprint within the mind of the victim, NOT part of, attached to, or powered by the Fallen in any way.
As such, there is no real limit on the number of Shadows that can co-exist in the world.
My own working theory is that this is how (or at least one of the ways that) the Fallen keep their coins in circulation: each of the Fallen, at any moment, has a score or more of Shadows working, hidden within ordinary-seeming muggles. These are not actively working to advance the "cause" of the Fallen, they're a Backup Plan. Each one works on three agenda items:
* giving the Host a good, secure life. Stable, safe, etc. They're backup. they need to be reliable!
* making the Host sympathetic and trusting toward the Shadow within them, and the Fallen it represents (#1 helps a LOT!).
* checking a Dead-Drop periodicallyThat's it. But also, the actual Denarian, holding the Coin, periodically sends a spy-style "Dead Drop" to each of their Shadow's. All the Drop is, is something to say "I'm still going; don't activate!"
But then, if any particular Coin drops out of circulation, the Dead Drops no longer keep the Backup Plan quiescent. Suddenly there's a bunch of Shadows telling their hosts how to summon the Coin, and that it's Very Important that they do so.
For further safety, I imagine a few of the Fallen have a mutual-trust society, whereby they don't even know all the locations & Dead-Drops of their own backup Shadows, but rely on a backup Fallen to ACTICVELY activate that Shadow (i.e. those Hosts check a drop that DOESN'T regularly happen, but if the the drop DOES activate, then they summon). This prevents a Host who turns on them (like Sanya did) from getting to the Backup Shadows before they can Activate, because not even the Fallen or their Host knows all of the Backup Shadows.
... or maybe that's too paranoid and careful even for millenia-old Fallen Angels?... <heh> NO, IT'S NOT.
I presume they have other measures in place, too.
Mira:
--- Quote ---3. If a wizard is "infected" with a Fallen's shadow without accepting the Fallen, the only way to get rid of the shadow would be, according to Michael, to "set aside" his "power". He doesn't say " magic", though I would assume it means magic. It could be another power, but honestly, that doesn't make sense to me.
--- End quote ---
On this point I'm kind of with Harry, simply because I think Michael is guessing, or maybe more like hoping that if Harry gave up his magic the shadow would leave his head. Since it has never happened before as far as the records show for the last 2,000 years how would he know?
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 18, 2019, 05:49:30 AM --- On this point I'm kind of with Harry, simply because I think Michael is guessing, or maybe more like hoping that if Harry gave up his magic the shadow would leave his head. Since it has never happened before as far as the records show for the last 2,000 years how would he know?
--- End quote ---
I think Michael was being truthful, telling Harry that this is the way that works, the ONLY way. I think the Knights (and their backup group in the Church) have sufficient records to know that this HAS been a reliable method; if the wizard can reliably set aside their power to wither away, the Shadow will reliably wither away too.
HOWEVER... there's an unspoken "so far as they know" in there, and I'm sure they DON'T know as far as they think they do!
I suspect that one of the things that triggers the Denarians to go on a records-purge (to strip the Church of knowledge about them) is if the Church ever learns another way to purge a Shadow. If Fallen go after a Man or Woman of Power, and the Host resists the Shadow... well, they're no longer a person of Power, because they've set it aside to get free of the Shadow!
So the Fallen may not have a new Host, BUT a potentially-powerful foe has been neutralized! I think the Fallen are QUITE happy with the Church actively working to disempower the Powerful who have sufficient strength of character to resist them!
g33k:
--- Quote from: Regenbogen on December 17, 2019, 10:18:34 PM --- ... Also I agree that we cannot be sure that Michael really knows everything about it...
--- End quote ---
Honestly, I think we CAN be sure that Michael (and the Church) really do NOT know everything about it! Michael won't be lying, and he's unlikely (IMHO) to have information on it that's actively wrong.
But it's absolutely certain that his info is incomplete; and likely that it's catastrophically incomplete!
--- Quote from: Regenbogen on December 17, 2019, 10:18:34 PM --- ... Or that Lash is telling the truth, when she tells Harry that no shadow has stayed that long without the host taking up the coin...
--- End quote ---
Obviously. We can never be certain than a bloody agent of the Fallen(!) is telling the truth!
But that scene near the end, I think is likely truthful. If it were just that one comment, I'd be dubious... I mean, Lash clearly presents as becoming deeply affected by Harry, and doubting herself and her mission. That scene begins with Lash asking Harry if he actually believes Molly can turn around and avoid becoming a Warlock; she may be thinking of her own situation, or even Lasciel the Fallen Angel. She wavers between doubtful (but hopeful) questioning, and raging (but fragile) pride. Harry is convincing her. Or is it all just an act???
Later that night, she declares that Lasciel doesn't deserve to get Harry, and chooses to sacrifice herself to save Harry. So Harry has convinced her, and that prior scene wasn't Lash "acting" in a new strategy to trick Harry, but genuinely showing change and growth.
It matches up with other elements, too, such as Nicodemus (and Anduriel (Anduriel! the Denarian's spymaster / CIO!) got tricked and blindsided by Harry Dresden, because they were utterly confident that Harry couldn't be free of the Shadow.
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