The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

NemVECTOR

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g33k:
Don't recall which book the Ramp's first showed up to a vamp/wiz fight with Outsiders, but I recall it being a nasty surprise to the White Council.  Harry said with some dismay that Outsider-summoning needed mortal magic (so the Ramps had mortal magicians as allies)... IIRC, it contributed to his "There must be a Black Council" analysis (figuring the BC as having made the Ramps into catspaws).

Meanwhile, over on the "can mortals be nemfected, or carriers, or not" theorycrafting & WAG threads, I've been using the term "Nemvector," as a generalization of carrier and/or nemfected:  the point is they are a 'fection vector.

But of course... every mortal spellcaster is a potential "Nemvector" in the sense of being able to be a new Patient Zero:  do a Summons, get Outsider-y influence and something that IS susceptible gets Nemfected.

For example, it's a whole new way Elaine could have Nemfected Aurora -- she could have been a non-Nemfected non-Carrier, and have no Athame-type artifact... and yet, Summon the Nemfection directly from Outside!

Given how subtle and tricksy Nemfection seems to be, I might further WAG that even SUMMONING a Nemfection might be very VERY hard to detect.
 

Yuillegan:
I believe the book you are referring to is Dead Beat. Up until that point - the war hadn't escalated overmuch. But I think Luccio is talking about it when the White Council is pursued into the Nevernever after a trap in Sicily. And I think 80% of the Wardens are killed. Interestingly, this is the book in which Cowl first introduces himself (only having a brief cameo possibly in Grave Peril, the book the war starts in and where we first see people potentially infected, also Mavra and others show up). And we first learn about Kemmler in Dead Beat. So all in all, a potent book with lots of hints.

I think your theory works if any Mortal practitioner can in fact summon Outsiders. We still have no idea how this is done. The closest example we have is the ritual in Blood Rites. Which is a huge hint to how to summon them, likely mortal blood is required. Madge and the other wives summon HWWBh using the rituals gained from Lord Raith's extensive occult library, is the only way we have seen so far.

I also challenge that it cannot be so easy to summon Nemesis, otherwise wouldn't there be an epidemic? Unless there is a whole horde of sleeper agent Nemfected and Nemvectors just being put into position waiting to strike...

No, I think it is harder than that. Otherwise why infect the Athame? The only way we have seen so far as the conduit for infection by Nemesis. If it were so easy to infect others, the whole song and dance with the Athame becomes unnecessary.

My theory is that if Elaine did infect Aurora, then likely she gave Aurora a tainted gift. She needed something to bargain for protection/hospitality from the Summer Court and she couldn't have done it with nothing unless she wanted to be in considerable debt/obligation (which only Harry is stupid enough to do). I think at least part of the deal was some artifact of Justin's. But who knows.

The biggest hints we have so far about how an individual becomes infected are and what we know about it:
1) Per WOJ - the Athame was more than a vector for madness, it more accurately was a vector for power.
2) Those who have become infected were trying to upset the status quo (by and large). Leah wished to challenge Mab, Aurora wished to challenge the Courts and break the cycle, Maeve wished to challenge Mab etc. They all needed more power, or perhaps more accurately needed more freedom, in which to do so.
3) I know everyone doesn't believe the mortals were infected, but if they were they fit the mould. Victor Sells wanted more power and wealth, Agent Denton wished to punish those he thought the law protected too well, Kravos wished to rise above his mediocrity and challenge the White Council (or at least gain their respect).
4) Being too close to Mortals changes the Fae. They resist it but it is dangerous for them. It might be dangerous for almost all supernatural types, as it changes how they interact with the world. I think this also is a hint for how a Faerie might become susceptible to Nemesis as well. They are meant to be different to Mortals and changing their nature could compromise their purpose.
5) Nemesis cannot affect Archangels (and likely Angels) per WOJ. So we at least can trust that it has some limits.
6) It can Hear those who use any of its Names, like a deity. It also once discovered can take active control of its Host(s) and can potentially spread to others (from Harry and Lily's conversation - why she was so cagey in the beginning because she didn't know if he was infested). Like many secret agents, when discovered it must convert the discoverer into an asset or kill them.
7) It also seems to have spread to the White Court causing them to change their diets, to the Red Court causing them to to become hostile openly and causing inner turmoil within, to the Fomor - active and aggressive after so long. Unless of course Maeve lied and these were merely moves in a much greater plan...
8 ) Nemesis (the Adversary) has multiple Names. I speculate that this is related to the Mother's true name. Perhaps it is because it is their adversary. But also I think giving it a name defines it, makes it more real. Like the Oblivion war, I think even Outsiders need a name/idea to latch onto to take shape.
9) It mostly takes decades of experience to recognize it without using the Sight (which has obvious detrimental effects). Rashid compared the techniques to art more than skill. So we know it is lies truly deep within a host, dormant or otherwise. Perhaps it attaches to their Soul, or at least a part of it.

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 10, 2019, 11:48:16 PM ---I believe the book you are referring too is Dead Beat.

I think your theory works if any Mortal practitioner can in fact summon Outsiders. ... The closest example we have is the ritual in Blood Rites.

why infect the Athame?

she couldn't have done it with nothing unless she wanted to be in considerable debt/obligation (which only Harry is stupid enough to do).

7) It also seems to have spread to the White Court causing them to change their diets, to the Red Court causing them to to become hostile openly and causing inner turmoil within, to the Fomor - active and aggressive after so long. Unless of course Maeve lied and these were merely moves in a much greater plan...

--- End quote ---
It was Dead Beat.

Summoning OutsidersWhile I wouldn't say that any mortal practitioner can summon an Outsider, Harry said that only mortal practitioners can summon an Outsider. The Blood Rites example illustrates several points. A mortal practitioner of at least Madge's skill and talent (likely even Trixie's because Harry suspects she had been performing the ritual) can draw power from an Outsider. He Who Walks Behind is an Outsider. Harry "banished" him. He's back after the ritual. His power was active Inside as soon as the first ritual was performed.

So I would conclude that just about any mortal, with sufficient knowledge, can summon an Outsider. (I can break down how I reached that conclusion in more detail, if anyone cares).

The AthameIt could be that Nemesis needs some kind of vector to infect. So Elaine, or whoever, performs some ritual and Nemesis occupies the Athame much like the loa that inhabited the Cabbage Patch Doll. Then the target must interact magically with the vector. I neither advocate nor object to this idea. It's just what I thought when I read "why infect the Athame."

Elaine's Considerable DebtElaine had considerable debt or lied about it.

A Much Greater PlanI subscribe to the "Much Greater Plan" theory. There have been several hints (perhaps misdirections) that those Outside have some sort of hierarchical structure. I believe Harry states at some point that the "Outsiders" are "foot soldiers" of "Old Ones" banished from reality. The Walkers were described as knights or generals; I don't recall specifically. Nemesis was described as a "sapper."

There is some dark and evil conspiracy behind basically every case file. If it is the forces of "Outside," I don't think Nemesis is the top/only part of that dark and evil conspiracy.

Yuillegan:
Good point. Harry talks about the magic Trixie Vixen performs as a ritual "a cosmic vending machine" rather than having actually powers or being a wizard/sorceress/practitioner. Jim has I think in the past said anyone can basically perform magic, but like anything it takes time and practice and knowledge, and a certain amount of talent to do anything special.


--- Quote ---It could be that Nemesis needs some kind of vector to infect. So Elaine, or whoever, performs some ritual and Nemesis occupies the Athame much like the loa that inhabited the Cabbage Patch Doll. Then the target must interact magically with the vector. I neither advocate nor object to this idea. It's just what I thought when I read "why infect the Athame."
--- End quote ---

^^This. Pretty much my guess as well, although my guess is that it must be an inherently magical item. If only for the fact the only vector so far was one.

Elaine - pretty much an either or. Doesn't matter either way overmuch really, as the result was that she did spend time becoming entangled with Summer.

Greater Plan - Yeah the Walkers (HWWBh, HWWBf, HWWBetween/Beside/Betwixt) are all considered powerful "knights" amongst their ruling entities. Only HWWBh is described as being Archangel level, whereas before is described as Mab level "but deeper" (assuming Mab isn't Archangel level...let's not get sidetracked here). The Old Ones are the ruling entities of the Outsiders, although it isn't clear if they are in fact the same species but we assume so, and that they once ruled the earth but were banished and locked down (although not all are Outside). I quite agree the Nemesis isn't near the top. It wouldn't surprise me if Nemesis was a Walker, but does seem qualitatively different from them. Neither Before or Behind have ever displayed the ability to infect or possess others, or any inclination to. They all seem to serve different functions. The Old Ones seem rather apocalyptic, and if they do come from and have existed outside the universe then likely they are more dangerous on a multi-verse level.

But who can say.

g33k:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 10, 2019, 11:48:16 PM --- I think your theory works if any Mortal practitioner can in fact summon Outsiders. We still have no idea how this is done. The closest example we have is the ritual in Blood Rites. Which is a huge hint to how to summon them, likely mortal blood is required. Madge and the other wives summon HWWBh using the rituals gained from Lord Raith's extensive occult library, is the only way we have seen so far. 
--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 13, 2019, 05:38:44 AM --- Good point. Harry talks about the magic Trixie Vixen performs as a ritual "a cosmic vending machine" rather than having actually powers or being a wizard/sorceress/practitioner...
--- End quote ---

It's worth noting that the actual ritual is an Entropy-Curse to kill the target by way of "random bad luck and millions-to-one coincidence" (such as frozen turkeys falling out of airplanes).

As noted, this curse is the "vending machine" variety -- do the rite (do it right), kill the vic.  Unless some nosy-parker White Council asshole mucks with your spell, of course.  But even WITH the correct rite, the sacrifice, etc... the rite doesn't do ANYTHING to the victim, really... the rite invokes some fearsome Other Power to nail the victim.  All the rite really does is say, "excuse me, sir... here's one death, and some miscellaneous other debauchery, and if it please you could you kill that person over there?  Pretty please, with heartsblood on top?"

When Harry F's it up for them we discover the Other Power (for the spell Raith let them use) was, in fact, an Outsider.

We don't actually know that they COULD HAVE performed an actual Summoning, if they'd used a different ritual in the Cosmic Vending Machine -- that was an accident, a malfunction in the ritual (Harry's awfully good at that sort of thing (possibly extra-good at it where Outsiders are concerned?)).  I admit that -- at least in principle, based on what we saw -- it seems awfully likely that such a ritual is eminently within the scope of the Dresdenverse Cosmic Vending Machine, even when "squibs" are feeding in coins and pressing the buttons.

But... I don't think we've seen Nemesis do anything like fuelling an Entropy Curse.  All we really see Nemesis doing is allowing other entities to do stuff (stuff they wouldn't/couldn't normally do) and then convincing (or forcing) them to actually do that stuff.  I mean... that's certainly ENOUGH for Nemesis!  For all the violence of the Walkers, their reputed might... don't seem to achieve as much...

So I'm not clear that "Nemesis" is equally summon'able via CVM magic.
 

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