The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Which mortal might become nemfected?
123Chikadee:
I don't think mortals can get Nemfected, mainly b/c if they could, then the Outsiders could have won already. My WAG is this: since mortals have freewill, that give them a certain amount of protection from Outsiders, but there's a catch-22 here. Only mortal magic can summon Outsiders but mortals can't be nemfected. Black magic is a loophole that Outsiders can exploit, so that a person who's done black magic is more willing to do things like summon Outsiders. Maybe that's how people can be carriers, via black magic as opposed to straight up objects.
Though other beings who aren't mortal but have some degree of free will can also exploit loopholes, such as the Red and White Courts of vampires.
If a starborn can be a carrier, it could be entirely down to how much black magic they were exposed to. So for Elaine to be a kind of sleeper agent, either willing or unwilling, could work. It would explain how Aurora got infected. The only tricky thing with this part is just when Aurora got infected, like her plan could have been on her mind before but Elaine inadvertently infecting her just made her act on it?
I think in order for this WAG to work, Meave has to lie to Lily about how the infection works. It'd be a good strategy. Get everyone paranoid and too worried about who could be sick to unite. Though this also depends on how much Titania would have told Lily. Maybe a general outline and then Maeve filled in the gaps with plausible lies.
The people Lily named as Nemfected could have been really close to achieving the outsiders' goals, so maybe it was a distinction without a difference kind of scenario?
Since black magic leaves stains on people, I'd say that a person will always be a carrier so they'd have to be careful for the rest of their lives. But, it probably also has a bit more to it than just performing black magic. So Justin could have done the extra thing with Elaine but Harry dodged a bullet. I tend to doubt that Justin is still alive, but that's mainly b/c I'm not really feeling the 'he was alive the whole time!' idea.
Arjan:
I think mortals with power can be infected and I think in turncoat the gatekeeper is checking out Harry for exactly that.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 10, 2019, 01:12:50 PM ---I am not a believer in coincidences, this adds up too well to be just that... That doesn't mean that Elaine was a willing carrier, but it doesn't mean that she wasn't used as one, or had any idea she was being used. She was successfully enthralled by Justin, now did that just wear off once he was dead? What HWB said to Harry in his flash back in Ghost Story says there is a lot more to see here, a plan. However it all blew up because Harry, being a starborn, and face it, being Harry, didn't play, even at sixteen.
--- End quote ---
Not saying your theory is wrong, Mira. Just saying that it is in fact, a theory. Not a fact. An important distinction. I quite like the theory as it happens. But I am just being clear that one thing is not the other. Does that make sense?
I think in the earlier books I would have said if Justin had died, and sunlight had risen, then the enthrallment would have stopped. However if Justin did not fully die, or he anchored it to something like a person (like Maggie's death curse on Lord Raith...and remember she and Justin were allies once) then probably the enthrallment is still active. Assuming she actually was, in fact, enthralled. We only have Elaine's word for it. Harry just thought she willingly joined Justin. Who knows maybe she did, maybe she was infected. We shall see.
And you are assuming here that He Who Walks Behind's plan did actually backfire. As Lea actually points out in that scene, it takes a very careful approach to make a Wizard think using destruction and violence is okay. Perhaps he just allowed Harry to destroy him. And even if he didn't, the plan was still at the very least partially successful. One thing that is clear is he would have only killed Harry if Harry wasn't useful. A common theme of the books, and especially the monsters, is that if you don't survive their lessons (think Mother Winter to Harry in Cold Days) you deserve to die.
123Chikadee - Fair enough as a theory. And your WAG is interesting. Although wouldn't that mean the Gatekeeper and Winter etc need to be more involved against Black Magic? It seems they are not as concerned with Demon black magic and the Fallen. And just to put it out there - all the supernatural types have some degree of Free Will. Otherwise they would be automatons. WOJ is that even angels had enough Free Will to Fall. And we have seen Uriel exercise his own Will, to a point.
The thing is - Mab knows how the infection happens. And we know it was the Athame. If it were so easy to infect a victim then why go to all that trouble with the Athame? And if people were such easy carriers via merely using Black Magic (as Harry has done btw) then wouldn't way more people be exposed - including Harry?
Arjan - I think the Gatekeeper, amongst others, have been watching Harry since he first was on the radar for such things. Those who really know about what's going on seem to take a keen interest in Harry. And pretty much all of them knew Harry's mother. No one seems as interested in Thomas either. I think the Gatekeeper even as early as Summer Knight may have suspected Harry of being infected. But yes that scene in Turn Coat on the dock (if that is what you are referring to) is a good example.
Mira:
--- Quote from: 123Chikadee on December 10, 2019, 05:14:44 PM ---I don't think mortals can get Nemfected, mainly b/c if they could, then the Outsiders could have won already. My WAG is this: since mortals have freewill, that give them a certain amount of protection from Outsiders, but there's a catch-22 here. Only mortal magic can summon Outsiders but mortals can't be nemfected. Black magic is a loophole that Outsiders can exploit, so that a person who's done black magic is more willing to do things like summon Outsiders. Maybe that's how people can be carriers, via black magic as opposed to straight up objects.
Though other beings who aren't mortal but have some degree of free will can also exploit loopholes, such as the Red and White Courts of vampires.
If a starborn can be a carrier, it could be entirely down to how much black magic they were exposed to. So for Elaine to be a kind of sleeper agent, either willing or unwilling, could work. It would explain how Aurora got infected. The only tricky thing with this part is just when Aurora got infected, like her plan could have been on her mind before but Elaine inadvertently infecting her just made her act on it?
I think in order for this WAG to work, Meave has to lie to Lily about how the infection works. It'd be a good strategy. Get everyone paranoid and too worried about who could be sick to unite. Though this also depends on how much Titania would have told Lily. Maybe a general outline and then Maeve filled in the gaps with plausible lies.
The people Lily named as Nemfected could have been really close to achieving the outsiders' goals, so maybe it was a distinction without a difference kind of scenario?
Since black magic leaves stains on people, I'd say that a person will always be a carrier so they'd have to be careful for the rest of their lives. But, it probably also has a bit more to it than just performing black magic. So Justin could have done the extra thing with Elaine but Harry dodged a bullet. I tend to doubt that Justin is still alive, but that's mainly b/c I'm not really feeling the 'he was alive the whole time!' idea.
--- End quote ---
Didn't Maeve indeed lie to Lily? That is the impression I got during the showdown in Cold Days. Lily was such an innocent and so unsuited for the role she was forced into when the mantel of Summer Lady entered her body. Maeve played her like a harp.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 11, 2019, 12:22:59 AM ---Not saying your theory is wrong, Mira. Just saying that it is in fact, a theory. Not a fact. An important distinction. I quite like the theory as it happens. But I am just being clear that one thing is not the other. Does that make sense?
I think in the earlier books I would have said if Justin had died, and sunlight had risen, then the enthrallment would have stopped. However if Justin did not fully die, or he anchored it to something like a person (like Maggie's death curse on Lord Raith...and remember she and Justin were allies once) then probably the enthrallment is still active. Assuming she actually was, in fact, enthralled. We only have Elaine's word for it. Harry just thought she willingly joined Justin. Who knows maybe she did, maybe she was infected. We shall see.
--- End quote ---
We see with Peabody and Lucio that the brain manipulation actually needs maintenance. The mind will fight back, the locks won't hold forever.
Also I do not think that Justin, even with Bob's guidance, was as skilled as Peabody. If he just went for loyalty and violence then the loyalty bit would have become quite meaningless by now even if it held which I think is unlikely.
--- Quote ---And you are assuming here that He Who Walks Behind's plan did actually backfire. As Lea actually points out in that scene, it takes a very careful approach to make a Wizard think using destruction and violence is okay. Perhaps he just allowed Harry to destroy him. And even if he didn't, the plan was still at the very least partially successful. One thing that is clear is he would have only killed Harry if Harry wasn't useful. A common theme of the books, and especially the monsters, is that if you don't survive their lessons (think Mother Winter to Harry in Cold Days) you deserve to die.
123Chikadee - Fair enough as a theory. And your WAG is interesting. Although wouldn't that mean the Gatekeeper and Winter etc need to be more involved against Black Magic? It seems they are not as concerned with Demon black magic and the Fallen. And just to put it out there - all the supernatural types have some degree of Free Will. Otherwise they would be automatons. WOJ is that even angels had enough Free Will to Fall. And we have seen Uriel exercise his own Will, to a point.
The thing is - Mab knows how the infection happens. And we know it was the Athame. If it were so easy to infect a victim then why go to all that trouble with the Athame? And if people were such easy carriers via merely using Black Magic (as Harry has done btw) then wouldn't way more people be exposed - including Harry?
--- End quote ---
Infection and possession are really overlapping concepts. You could say that Harry was infected by Lasciel's shadow. Or possessed. To be possessed by Nemesis the outsider power has to get in and mingle with your own spirit. Using the power of the dagger probably triggers that.
The dagger is a safer carrier than a person and Mab keeps it on her person to guard it.
--- Quote ---Arjan - I think the Gatekeeper, amongst others, have been watching Harry since he first was on the radar for such things. Those who really know about what's going on seem to take a keen interest in Harry. And pretty much all of them knew Harry's mother. No one seems as interested in Thomas either. I think the Gatekeeper even as early as Summer Knight may have suspected Harry of being infected. But yes that scene in Turn Coat on the dock (if that is what you are referring to) is a good example.
--- End quote ---
Yes, that one.
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