The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Proven Guilty final iteration.
morriswalters:
Given Mab's interchange with Harry at the end of Cold Days it isn't hard to speculate that they saw what was happening because they were watching. She knew every detail of Harry's and Molly's interaction from roughly Death Masks forward.
g33k:
I like a LOT of this, but differ in a few key elements...
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 19, 2019, 08:09:30 PM --- How did the Gatekeeper know that Molly had been using Black Magic?
Because he's been watching Chicago for Mab.
--- End quote ---
I do see "watching Chicago..." but I see no need for a "... for Mab."
Rashid has all sorts of oracular/scrying abilities that even the rest of the Senior Council doesn't understand. It's not even clear that "the Gatekeeper" is a White Council role, the way "the Merlin" is... or that being Gatekeeper comes from those abilities... or that those abilities make him eligible for the role. Uncertainty wrapped in ambiguity, packed within ignorance!
I'm pretty sure that Rashid understands was a Starborn is, though; and that Harry is one.
A Starborn wizard sitting on a nexus site like Chicago is going to get a LOT of Rashid's attention, Mab or not. Add in the improbable amount of Bad Shit coming/sent to Chicago (from which Harry deduces the "Black Council") and I expect Rashid probably has a laser-focus on the place, the realization that the suspected issues are very real indeed.
Given his known oracular/scrying abilities, I see no reason to posit a Mab tip-off: he's sufficiently on the ball to notice the taint of black magic, since he's already paying close attention.
Also, tipping off Harry doesn't really advance Mab's cause: Nelson is getting arrested, Molly is about to call Harry, and the dominoes are beginning to fall. Harry will suspect black magic immediately, even without a tip from Rashid.
So I think Rashid's warning was pretty on-the-level, and not tied into Mab's plot.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 19, 2019, 08:09:30 PM --- ... How do we know he can do something like that. Jim tells you by what he does at the end of the trial, just before the team blows in with the newbee's. He watches the running fight involving Eb and the other Council members ...
--- End quote ---
I think Rashid is using his own foretelling. He's not scrying a fight in realtime, he's watching potential-futures diverge and coalesce, new what-might-be's created, old ones wither away. Finally he sees that a Knight of the Cross is indeed coming to the warehouse where his daughter is on trial for her life, and opens the door for him.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 19, 2019, 08:09:30 PM --- Why is she watching?
Because Lea had been watching and protecting Harry, and Mab had confined Lea.
--- End quote ---
Yes, absolutely!
But this is only the first half. I will WAG that Lea was Harry's godmother because Mab wanted her to be. Oh, sure, there was the whole bargain-with-MargaretLeFay schtick; but that was just the formula they had to go through (being faeries), and a bit of theater for the poor apeshumans to focus upon. Mind you, Mab was indeed Lea's stand-in (at this point) because Mab was "obligated" to take up Lea's duties... but Mab wanted the role anyhow.
Because Mab already wanted Harry -- she wanted Harry to be the next WinterKnight. Because Winter is fighting the Outsiders, and a Starborn Wizard would be a marvelous weapon to wield against them. I mean... Lloyd Slate vs. Outsiders? Seriously? So she is finally beginning the process of harvesting the Starborn Wizard Winter Knight whom she has been growing (by way of Lea) for many years...
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 19, 2019, 08:09:30 PM --- How is she watching or the Gatekeeper watching?
He or she are using the magic of the Outer Gates.
--- End quote ---
Nah. This is our biggest difference, I think.
The Outer Gates are GATES, first and foremost. They aren't Mab's Own Starfleet Sensor Array. They can spot Outsiders, because that's part of their Gate-y schtick: separating the Outside from the Inside. Other scrying... notsomuch, no.
Unless, of course, Molly's Black Magic was in fact Outsider Magic. Because I totally buy the Outer Gates as spotting that! There's the whole "all Black Magic is Outsider Magic" theory, which I think would mean the Outer Gates can track it; I don't buy that theory, but I don't reject it either... I just find "insufficient evidence" either way.
But Mollie's specific mind-magic may have an Outsider taint, whether or not other forms of Black Magic do. That whole thing where they give Faeries the ability to lie, to act with "Free Will" against their natures/mantles, hmmm? And what's Molly doing? Oh! Mucking around with her victims' Free Will! Which does seem kinda Outsider-y, hmmm?
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 19, 2019, 08:09:30 PM --- How did she know of Little Chicago and the fact that it was broken?
The Mothers told her.
--- End quote ---
Straight up, man: any time someone alleges "the Mothers knew that," I'm probably "yup, they did; they soooo knew that!" So I don't disagree with you, exactly...
But I don't think that's what happened! Here's why:
First off, "The Mothers told " just seems... not very them, y'know? The Mothers aren't much for "telling," I think. And they seem especially loath to tell one of the other Queens (they evidently knew Aurora's plan, and could have told Mab and/or Titania what Aurora was planning; but evidently "couldn't" tell either Queen).
The other side from Harry's Lab is Lea's Garden; it's probably where she does experiments of her own (such as "amusing new ways to kill" and "creative desceptions"), so as to keep a close correspondence.
But then Lea had to be sidhe-sicle'd, and Mab had to take over.
You remember how impressed Harry was when Lily opened the Way in Pell's theater? You realize how much more subtle Mab is than Lily? How much more powerful the Winter Queen is than the Summer Lady? How much easier the opening is (compared to the Summerlady opening to Arctis Tor) when the 2nd-strongest Winterfae has been building a correspondence for YEARS?
Do you really think ANYTHING that's in that lab at that time has escaped Mab's notice? Mab can see into Harry's lab as easily as you or I change tabs in our browser!
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 19, 2019, 08:09:30 PM ---Why was Pell attacked?
Why have Harry come to Arctis Tor?
Why did the Black Council attack?
Who attacked Pell?
Who did the second attack?
Who did the third attack?
--- End quote ---
Preach it, brother!
I am marching beside you, shoulder to shoulder! I mean, you've got some details I hadn't considered, and you left off a few I think are relevant. But every phrase of your query/response has me going, "yep... yep... yep..."
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 19, 2019, 08:09:30 PM --- Who is Sandra Marling?
Goodman Grey. Why. Because I like him.
--- End quote ---
.... aaaand, you've lost me again. :P
Honestly, I see no reason to suspect Sandra Marling is anything other than a Muggle horror-movie fan (is there some WoJ or something, stating that she's more than what she seems to be? because I see no other reason for so much suspicion around her) But it's OK, this is a minor point! ;D
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: g33k ---Honestly, I see no reason to suspect Sandra Marling is anything other than a Muggle horror-movie fan (is there some WoJ or something, stating that she's more than what she seems to be?
--- End quote ---
It isn't completely unsupported. Somewhere there is a WOJ that says Harry and Molly looked for her after the fact. But remove here from the story and the story falls apart. She pulls the actors together, she sets the stage, she puts the idea of using fear as a cure, and so on and so on. And then poof, gone like a fart in the wind. We last see her taking Molly home.
Depending on when Jenny Greenteeth died it could have been her, I can't keep track. I just like Goodman Grey. But Jim spent a lot of time on her, she's important. And give some thought to this from Changes.
--- Quote ---“La,” she said, smiling. “My guardians were created to attack any intruder—including one that looked like you. We couldn’t have some clever shapeshifter slipping by, now, could we?”
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: g33k ---Given his known oracular/scrying abilities, I see no reason to posit a Mab tip-off: he's sufficiently on the ball to notice the taint of black magic, since he's already paying close attention.
--- End quote ---
Who had been watching Harry all the time? Lea, going so far as to put a monster trap on the portion of the Never Never adjacent to Harry's home? And in Proven Guilty Mab was carrying her water. And to top it off she had already decided to make him her Knight, thus the reason for leaving Slate hanging. From Changes
--- Quote ---“I should appreciate such a thing.” She studied me quietly. “It has been true for your entire lifetime, child. I have followed you in the spirit world. Created guardians and defenses ’pon the other side to ward your sleep, to stand sentinel over your home. And you still have only the beginnings of an idea of how many have tried.” She smiled, showing her delicately pointed canine teeth again. “Tried, and failed.”
Which also explained how she was always near at hand whenever I had entered the Nevernever. How she would be upon my trail in seconds whenever I went in.
Because she had been there, protecting me.
From everything but herself.
--- End quote ---
So if you consider that Harry was the real target you see how they knew. Put saving Molly as the focus of the book and the pieces don't fit, put Harry in the focus and the pieces more or less fall into place. And Michael suggests it at the end.
KurtinStGeorge:
If Maeve was involved in any of this, it's something that pretty much can only be confirmed in a time travel Dresden story. Yes, in theory there could come a time when Harry works out most of the details and in a conversation or dispute with Mab, she reveals her daughter was responsible for the attacks, but that wouldn't be very good writing. It would be far better for Harry to go back in time and learn of Maeve's role that way. Plus, many of us assume it was future Harry who who hit the blue beetle from behind and spun Harry out near the beginning of PG.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on November 21, 2019, 11:29:15 PM ---It isn't completely unsupported. Somewhere there is a WOJ that says Harry and Molly looked for her after the fact. But remove here from the story and the story falls apart. She pulls the actors together, she sets the stage, she puts the idea of using fear as a cure, and so on and so on. And then poof, gone like a fart in the wind. We last see her taking Molly home.
--- End quote ---
I think there are a couple WoJ's about it. I recall one where someone lays out the case that Marling set up basically everything in the book, the convention, Madrigal being there, the convention being next to Pell's theater, gave Molly the idea of using fear. Then Jim gave a typical reply that implies approval of the theory but doesn't confirm it.
Jenny's dead in Prove Guilty. The "Billy's Wedding" story is between Dead Beat and Proven Guilty.
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