The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Some thoughts on Stormfront

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Yuillegan:
g33k - perhaps Sells got the spell from Raith, perhaps it was someone else. But you touch on part of what I am getting at. Vadderung says it isn't coincidence right after Harry learns the the Reds wish to target him through the same spell Sells used. Perhaps the Reds have had the spell for millennia, and I agree it fits thematically with the human heart sacrifice, but it is more than that. You are exactly right I think - it is all part of a greater plan that I believe the Outsiders are heavily involved in, if not directly responsible for. Vadderung seems to take deep offense at that particular type of magic, and considering he taught Merlin and Merlin made the Laws of Magic, one might conclude that Vadderung doesn't like death magic/blood curses of that nature.

Kbrizzle - I think your theory about Raith needing Sells as an informer is plausible enough. I think Bianca's whole masquerade was interesting. We haven't heard of anything similar before or since. Perhaps sessions in the Faerie Courts would be similar. But the fact that some mere Vampire was ascending to a higher tier on the Ziggurat (so to speak) and required the attendence of no less than a Dragon, the head of the White Court, the 2nd most powerful faerie in Winter, one of the last (and oldest) Black Court vampires, the local Wizard (of course the area Warden wasn't invited - but had it been not about revenge on Harry the invitation should surely have gone to someone more senior amongst the White Council), and perhaps a few other significant players that we are not aware of yet - seems really odd to me.

My take is that the real reason for those guests for something that should have been smaller and probably internal, was that it was a recruiting session. Not a voluntary one of course. But likely every important guest who was not allied with the Black Council/New Force (Nicodemus' term)/Nemesis/Circle etc was there to be recruited. Ferrovax and Lea were probably heavies that "they" wished to corrupt. Mavra is likely already on the team so she didn't get or need a Nfected gift. Bianca (if she wasn't nfected, was not really required as she was giving the gifts and not that useful) and I think Lord Raith while perhaps not nfected per se, I think he might still have been a part of the Circle but his impotency might have been slowly pushed to the bench and as he resented that, sent Thomas by way of insult. And I agree that perhaps that is part of why Mavra and Cowl move against him later on.

What are the chances that Martin is reading the same black magic book that Sells is? Just to be clear too - Harry suspects Martin would have known about the blood curse as a former priest. But even that is just speculation. I think it is more likely that someone Nfected on the Red Court team supplied that spell to Sells (perhaps via Raith). Perhaps it wasn't a test run for that spell using the Sells. But it was no accident he ended up finding it.

It doesn't matter to us that Sells was infected. But for some reason Sells was caught up with the "new force"/nemesis etc. I wholly agree with you that Nemesis has limits. I think we have discussed this before. But I think it's limits are the same as any virus - it's ability to transmit to new hosts. Hosts normally have to have compromised immune systems or the virus has to work in special ways in order to live in the host. I think Nemesis' limits are a combination of its ability to transmit from host to host, and perhaps that because it is "aware" it chooses its victims. More like a sentient Ebola (a truly terrifying thought). I suppose I just do not get why people are so against it being able to infect regular old mortals but are perfectly fine with it infecting supernatural beings. Truly I think we will not see the clues in Storm Front until the BAT as Jim is withholding key information, but I think when we do get that info we will see Nemesis and perhaps other players fingerprints in Storm Front.

I agree that he was never a strong pawn, but I think the goals of cosmic-level entities are less centered around fights of the physical nature, and more around the smaller and more important things like Choice (at least that seems to fit the theme of the series). And yeah, I am sure there is at least one high-level Wizard apart from Peabody who might be nfected or associated with the Black Council. Luccio is too obvious, and she had her mind control thing already. Not sure she fits the bill really. Cristos probably, maybe Simon (if you buy he is still alive). LtW would be great for the shock reveal and fit his character of past resentments, but not of his ability to learn from them. And he was struck down in Changes. Martha Liberty would also be interesting but we have seen so little of her anyway. Rashid is almost impossible - he works the Gate which helps detect Nemesis amongst other things and sees the Queens pretty regularly.

I don't think Langtry just because that robs the character of just plain old being a dick. Which I think is his worst quality, not that he is actually evil. Same for Mai.

Ascher would have worked but being on the Denarian team...I think that rules her out. Unless Lasciel is infected...but I think there is WOJ that angels are immune or something.

kbrizzle:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on October 08, 2019, 06:25:39 AM ---
I wholly agree with you that Nemesis has limits. I think we have discussed this before. But I think it's limits are the same as any virus - it's ability to transmit to new hosts. Hosts normally have to have compromised immune systems or the virus has to work in special ways in order to live in the host. I think Nemesis' limits are a combination of its ability to transmit from host to host, and perhaps that because it is "aware" it chooses its victims. More like a sentient Ebola (a truly terrifying thought). I suppose I just do not get why people are so against it being able to infect regular old mortals but are perfectly fine with it infecting supernatural beings. Truly I think we will not see the clues in Storm Front until the BAT as Jim is withholding key information, but I think when we do get that info we will see Nemesis and perhaps other players fingerprints in Storm Front.

--- End quote ---
IIRC Mab says that the Nfection jumped out of Lea & into Maeve - why would it need to do that if it can Nfect as many people as it likes? Viruses copy themselves into a new host, they don’t leave the old one to get to the new one.

The reason I do not believe that Nemesis can Nfect humans is its whole shtick is that it is able to change that which cannot - like the natures of individual Fae. As immortals, they do not possess free will & thus cannot make a choice to change themselves/ their fundamental natures (sorta like angels) - humans however do possess free will & are fungible enough to change themselves as they please. It is easier to emotionally/ financially manipulate a human into doing something than wasting valuable resources on Nfecting them.

Additionally, if humans could be Nfected, why wouldn’t Nemesis try to Nfect the POTUS & start a global nuclear war or something? Maybe launch a nuke at the WC Edinburgh facility & Demonreach?

Kindler:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on October 07, 2019, 03:44:44 AM ---Kindler - why would Nemesis worry about some random sorcerer via manipulation? A cosmic level power worrying about Sells beggars belief. How and why Sells was infected is one of the most important things.

No one has accounted for what Nemesis is trying to do. Nemesis had a goal when it infected Sells. To test the heart-ripping spell. Perhaps the Three-Eye too. Perhaps it too was testing its reach into mortal law with the FBI. With Aurora, it wanted to upset the Fairy balance to weaken Winter's position at the Outer Gates. But had Aurora succeeded in her plan, she would have made Winter stronger.

Almost all of the event seem to rope Harry in, and one might wonder if it was done to test him as well. But the real goal of Nemesis has been to upset the Status Quo, which every normal supernatural entity and nation seem very protective of (even the more evil ones).

--- End quote ---

This assumes that Nemesis actually infected Sells, which isn't necessarily a concept I'm 100% sold on. None of his, the FBI Wolves, or Bianca's out of character behavior requires Nemesis to explain it; it can readily be explained either as mental manipulation by a Wizard (Cowl is a prime suspect, for example, and Bianca was being instructed by Mavra, so she might've handled her), White Court Vampire, demonic influence (as in Fallen more so than one like Froggy that Sells calls up), or any number of things. Mira's explanation about the corrupting influence of black magic is possible, too. There's very little reason for Nemesis to bother with the kind of control he gets over Cat Sith, or even Maeve—money, power, lust, greed, pride, and righteous indignation are all enough motivation for them to do what they did, and those aren't exactly in short supply. I mean, the Beckitts are a prime example of what normal humans will do when it comes to revenge.

That said, I do think that someone wanted Three Eye on the streets. I've toyed with the idea that the Circle/Black Council/Outsiders/Whoever the Hell are pushing for a Mass Awakening from vanilla mortals. I think it's possible they want the Masquerade to come to an end, so they can take advantage of the absolute chaos in the mortal world to do whatever it is they want to (establish the New Order, Destroy Reality Itself, it's basically motivation roulette). I think the main issue with them doing it by hand (like Cowl summoning a demon on live TV or whatever) is a matter of scale. People will handwave and rationalize any number of supernatural events, especially in the DV (the Wal-Mart Gas Leak, for example) as having some kind of mundane cause.

It's something we see in the real world all the time. Look at how many people desperately search for motives for murderers. Some simply don't have one, and they tend to be the ones that get books and movies made about them, many trying to explain why.

So for a real WAKE UP Call for Humanity to happen, there's got to be something that happens on a significant scale. Three Eye (or Third Eye? I can't remember) gave normal humans a watered down version of the Sight. If that gets into enough people's hands, you're going to see things that can't be rationally explained eventually. Imagine if there was suddenly thousands of people who could, essentially, read people's minds—people who'd never been able to do anything like that before. It's not what Three Eye does, but that's how it would seem to people. Ramping up production of that drug and distributing it at scale would eventually cause enough people to start asking questions.

Basically, I think humanity has to come to the conclusion that the Supernatural Is Real on their own. They have to launch an investigation and find evidence. Hundreds, thousands, or even millions of people who can suddenly see things they shouldn't might cause enough people to begin asking the right kinds of questions to lead Humanity to believe that yes, there Are Things That Live In The Dark.

Extremely wild ass guess of mine, but I think it makes sense.

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on October 07, 2019, 03:44:44 AM ---[1]Bad Alias - Explicitly. In the law if I ask you if you have drugs, and you say yes, you are not implying you have drugs. You are explicitly admitting to it. Dresden was checking with Lily, and she confirms. That is explicit enough.

[2]Secondly, if Ebola taints you, you have been infected. Why would Nemesis be different?

[3]Thirdly, Maeve wants to fuck with Dresden. Nemesis seems rather to view him as an annoying impediment, based on his one brief chat with it (Cat Sith). But this whole scene doesn't work if Lily's reveal is a lie. This reveal allows Dresden to understand his theoretical Black Council might just be an offshoot of something larger, and might not even just be Wizards. He begins to understand that his problems are so much bigger - which is what this whole book is about. To then go and retract this later just to say "gotcha" devalues the scene and will confuse his revelation.

...
[4]With Aurora, it wanted to upset the Fairy balance to weaken Winter's position at the Outer Gates. But had Aurora succeeded in her plan, she would have made Winter stronger.

--- End quote ---
1. Lily says they were "tainted" and "destroyed." She does not say they were infected. It's more like you asking me if I have drugs, and I say I'm corrupted by drugs. This could mean that I launder money for a drug dealer or some other such thing that doesn't involve me possessing drugs, but makes me a worse person.

2. Nemesis would be different in that it is sentient and can taint people without infecting them.

3. Nemesis isn't in complete control of Maeve. The example of Cat Sith shows us this. For Nemesis to be in complete control, it has to basically destroy the hosts personality and its own ability to use the host to infiltrate.

4. Jim has said dumping Summer into Winter would be like mixing matter and anti-matter.


--- Quote from: kbrizzle on October 09, 2019, 04:11:19 AM ---IIRC Mab says that the Nfection jumped out of Lea & into Maeve.

--- End quote ---
I don't recall anything like that.

Kindler:
I mean, how would Lily even know that Sells and Denton's pack were Infected? She was a changeling girl at the time. I don't think she was even eighteen yet. What she says is speculation; it could be correct, and it could be based on information she'd gathered since becoming the Summer Lady, or it could be something Maeve told her (but, again, how would Uninfected Maeve know? She wasn't around those first two incidents at all—I don't think she was even around Chicago at the time; I'm pretty sure she moved into Undertown when Mab came to the city).

Lily's accusation is basically a guess—maybe an informed guess—that may or may not be right, and isn't verifiable any longer. Barring time travel, of course.

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