Did Kemmler start the Black Council?

[Con]

Theories in the title. We know from Luccio's short story Society of Thule is legit- As legit as any other Black Magic group.

So I wonder if thats not the only organisation Kemmler started or was a part of?

Did he start the Black Council? or the Circle as Cowl says in White Night.

Also if it is the Circle, does the Circle only have 13 members? Similar to the Grey Council. As Dresden says thats the biggest number a spell can have.

Also how does the Black Council/Circle relate to the Fomor, Corpsetaker. If Cowl is a member and he fought against Corpsetaker and Grevane, who were Kemmlers disciples.

Anything else on the Black Council and Circle feel free to discuss.

[Yuillegan]

You know, I found that story quite illuminating. Lots of clues.

I suspect you are right, or at least, he is responsible for what led to the creation of the Black Court. I still think he is probably active and behind everything, but that is a quite crazy WAG with very little evidence

I don't think the Circle has only thirteen members, because in White Night I believe Vitto wished to be elevated to the Circle. I think it more like a magic cult myself.

Well, I think it relates because Cowl is a Heir of Kemmler, likes Corpsetaker. Beyond that connection, not so sure. As for the Fomor, I simply think they are another hungry Power that has been biding its time that has been energised by the real players. The ones stiring everything up. The Circle.

That's my take anyway.

Also - there is a clear link between the Denarians and the Thule Society. In Small Favor, the Denarians use a ritual to contain the Archive (Harry speculates that it was powered by Lucifer himself...). The symbol on each axis point of the five pointed star, is an bastardised symbol of magic like Harry's pentagram with the exception that the points of the star are NOT contained with in the circle. Harry compares it to the Anarchist symbol. He muses that it means Power without Limit or Restraint. Interestingly Thorned Namshiel, Tessa and the Red Horned demoness (I forget her name) are the sorcerers, and the ones Harry suspect of being involved with the Black Council (as opposed to Nicodemus).

In A Fistful of Warlocks the same symbol appears on the top of the building Kemmler is in. Food for thought.

[Bad Alias]

I think the "anarchy" symbol is just a symbol with magical significance like pi is a symbol with mathematical significance. It doesn't mean that kids in geometry classes are in league with Einstein and Heisenberg.

I like the idea that the Circle has 13 members or, at least, factions. The Red Court was run by a King and the Lords of the Outer Night. The Lords numbered 13.

Because so many in the White Council were out of commission in Changes, we can't be sure that there are/were only 13 members.

It's my opinion that the Black Council is a wizard's only affair that is a subset of the Circle, or there isn't a Black Council because the whole point of the term is that it's a bunch of black magic wizards running around causing trouble. I think of the Circle as an evil supernatural Chamber of Commerce. Just because members have shared goals doesn't mean that they also don't compete with one another.

[spiritofair]

I just can't believe Kemmler is dead. The guy could jump bodies like Corpsetaker.  But, I don't know where he would have went.  Dumorne just seems too easy. And, also, why was he laying so low for so long.

And, who is Cowl? If it's Dumorne, then Dumorne isn't Kemmler, because he would have known all of that stuff already.  But he's got to be someone we or Harry know, otherwise, why the hood?  Simon Petrovich?  I can't believe it's Ebenezer.  Does he wear the cowl because he is undead?  A weakened Kemmler?

So many questions!!!

[Bad Alias]

His arms are scarred.

[Avernite]

I could see Kemmler starting the Black Council as his cult of stooges, Cowl takes it over after his fall (and Kemmler died because Cowl turned on him), but without Kemmler the cult loses its central focus and key power.

So Cowl brought in the Outsiders to fill Kemmler's shoes inside the cult.

[toodeep]

There is probably a circle, since we have heard that referenced, though that could have been ruse for Madrigal's benefit.

The Black Council is probably a blanket group of nfected beings.  We know Cowl must be nfected - they provided an nfected vector to the Leanshea.  That was almost certainly intentional, and lets face it, you don't know about nfection and propagate it if you aren't nfected yourself.  It is literally messing with the end of reality to do so, so you pretty much have to be nfected to think its a good idea.  I can see summoning outsiders to do your bidding if you aren't nfected because you have an illusion of control, but deliberately propagating nfection has no control and thus implies spreading nfection is the only goal.

Now, as we heard in Cowl's soliloquy, he doesn't think he's insane, so it is likely that while he is nfected, he doesn't believe he is nfected, so he has to rationalize his actions which may be part of being part of an organization like the Circle.  A group of beings ostensibly working together to increase their own power, but somehow their activities also always wind up serving the outsiders.

[Snark Knight]

I wouldn't conclude the circle are all infected. We don't even know if humans CAN be infected.

I think they think they're using the outsiders, but they're being used in turn.

[forumghost]

My thoughts on the Black Council are that they're a loose alliance of Malcontents that want to shake up the current power structure to come out on top. I also think that, if any one person's going to be behind it, it'll be Maggie, and poor Harry is just stuck cleaning up his mother's mess.

Lord Raith was involved, as was Cowl, Arianna, and probably Maggie Sr (I also suspect this club is where Nick knew Maggie from). The meeting that Maggie invited Eb into was about him joining, and they fought because as much a Eb hates the Council's Guts, he's not dumb enough to work with the types that Maggie was/he knew better then to mess with the forces they wanted to use in their upcoming war with... basically everyone, I suppose.

I also want to guess that the reason Maggie bailed on them was because she found out about Nemesis, realized that she's accidentally helped form the Injusice League (ooops) and wanted to Manhattan Project up an anti-outsider (Harry) to try and fix it. This is what she meant when she talked to Harry in Thomas's Soulgaze about being sorry for the burden she placed on him- He was the tool she made to save the world from her own Glorious Fuck-ups.

[Bad Alias]

I like the idea that it's all Harry's mom's fault.

[Yuillegan]

Strengths
*  Fairly low powered god.  The combination of Lady, Queen and Mother is collectively equal to a strong god like Hades in power.  The Mother has the lion's share of that power, so Mab by herself has to be fairly weak in the god power scale.  I would argue that the very weakness of her god power is a strength as she suffers much less restrictions on the use of her power as compared to the more powerful gods.  The universe as described clearly has rules that severely limit the more powerful beings.  The Mother must be far more constrained than the Queen and the Lady should be less constrained than the Queen. 
*  She can hear things spoken at night, especially if her name is spoken.  Great source of intelligence
*  She commands the winter fey.  Mother may be stronger, but the queen rules day to day operations

Weaknesses
*  Mab cannot harm a mortal directly, but must wait for them to make themselves vulnerable (via a deal) or use the Winter Knight. 
*   There are MANY other powers comparable to Mab out there in the universe.   Her attention must be split to counter many of them and/or make sure their agenda does not hurt Mab's agenda.  For example, the entity behind the "worshipers" in the molly short story has nothing to do with the Outsiders, but was still a threat to Winter's interests.   Even though the Outsiders are clearly making a move, Mab cannot afford to ignore the other threats just in case they are acting while Mab is distracted. 

Lots of theories in there - I am curious about where you get your ideas from though. So let's unpack.

Mab is a low powered god - where do you have reference to this? She is clearly stronger than retired gods like Odin and the Lords of the Outer Night. In terms of your scale and the god you have compared her to (Hades), are you saying he is as strong as the Mothers (and by extension, an Archangel)? Because I have yet to hear of any evidence to support that. Archangels, and beings of their level (the Mothers, the Walkers etc) are beyond mere gods like Hades. But I am open to a discussion of an alternate point of view.

I don't believe that her power works like Anduriel's, in that she can hear all things of the night. Her title as Queen of Air and Darkness, is more to do with the human elements (reason and savagery) than the physical phenomena. Which isn't to say she has no influence (she rescued Harry from the cold dark waters of Lake Michigan) but I think this ability has never even been hinted at in the series. Her ability to hear her name is more to do with being supernatural, even Toot-toot has that.

Mother Winter serves more like the Chair of the Board, the ultimate ruler. She doesn't do day-to-day operations as she has duties and concerns that are much higher and more complex. She is more akin to a force of nature, than merely a steward of a role. As Jim says, you just obey gravity - duh.

Mab may not directly be able to harm a mortal - but she doesn't need to. She has all those other Winter Fae for that. Plus a Knight.

And the worshippers were worshipping a "sleeper" something that the Outsiders wanted released...

SK - We don't know that humans CANNOT be infected either. We only know of a few infected being anyway.

forumghost - I thought similarly for a while, that Maggie is behind a lot of this and was on the original team of rulebreakers. But. I also wondered if she merely, in her activism, came across more extreme types.

[toodeep]

I wouldn't conclude the circle are all infected. We don't even know if humans CAN be infected.

I think they think they're using the outsiders, but they're being used in turn.

It is highly likely that humans can be effected.  The summer lady openly indicates both Victor sells, Kravos, and the FBI agents were corrupted by Nemesis.  She could be wrong, since she also thought she could detect nfection by touch and was getting her information from an nfected Maeve.  But there is significant confirmation for this belief since shortly after meeting with her Harry meets Rashid at the outer gates where Rashid says that, "unwitting or not, virtually your every action in the past few years has resulted in a series of well-placed thumbs in the adversary's eye."  Which does seem to support that those three cases were motivated by nfection like the summer lady believed.

Also, yes, I suspect that the circle is the organization that Harry's mother was influential in starting.  And I think they had a hand in the planning or creation of Harry.  I think the circle and the outsiders want a starborn child as well, though why has yet to be revealed.  I think Harry's mom learned about startborn and planned to have one for the circle, then learned of the nfection and got the hell out and continued with the having a starborn child to oppose them.  That is why Harry's teacher recruited him and why KWWB didn't just kill him.  They wanted Harry "activated" and on their side.

[narphoenix]

I wouldn't conclude the circle are all infected. We don't even know if humans CAN be infected.

In Cold Days, Maeve implies strongly that she intended to Nfect Justine.

[peregrine]

In Cold Days, Maeve implies strongly that she intended to Nfect Justine.

This is the second time I've seen someone say this, do you have the specific quote handy?  Because I don't remember it, but I also haven't read it in a while, and don't have it handy.

Also, Maeve thinks a lot of things, including that being infected is a good thing, that may not actually be accurate.  Though presumably something like who she can and cannot infect would be something she's got a good handle on.

[Yuillegan]

I spent some time looking for it - I believe it is this

And the vampire's crumpet. Luscious little thing arn't you? And so close to Lady Raith. You and I are going to have a long talk after this, darling. I just know you're going to start seeing things my way

Cold Days, Ch 51, p445

Too Deep - Thank you!! Someone gets it. Rashid, who is almost certainly NOT nfected, also confirmed that Harry's first few cases were all linked to the adversary directly. Lily wasn't wrong. People can be nfected.