The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Mab's Limits
dspringer1:
As a general tendency, the forum generally assumes Mab is effectively all-knowing, all powerful, at least from Dresden's perspective.
This thread is more focused on Mab's very real weaknesses. I would argue that Mab is a key player, but nowhere close to all knowing/powerful.
Strengths
* Immortal
* Fairly low powered god. The combination of Lady, Queen and Mother is collectively equal to a strong god like Hades in power. The Mother has the lion's share of that power, so Mab by herself has to be fairly weak in the god power scale. I would argue that the very weakness of her god power is a strength as she suffers much less restrictions on the use of her power as compared to the more powerful gods. The universe as described clearly has rules that severely limit the more powerful beings. The Mother must be far more constrained than the Queen and the Lady should be less constrained than the Queen.
* She is Winter --- great power over cold, ice, winter, etc. Fey are very nature focused, so expect she has great ability to influence anything winter related in nature.
* She is clearly very smart and capable
* She can hear things spoken at night, especially if her name is spoken. Great source of intelligence
* She is a planner - always having multiple plans for every contingency
* She commands the winter fey. Mother may be stronger, but the queen rules day to day operations
* She no doubt has a "bank" of favors accumulated to leverage as needed
* She has a very capable 2nd in command in Lea -- as well as a capable (if young) Lady in Molly
Weaknesses
* Mab shares all the weaknesses of Fey - cannot tell a lie, vulnerable to iron, bound by winter law, must honor agreements, cannot give gifts without payment.
* Mab is automatically countered to some extent by Summer. That is the role of Summer
* Mab's nature is Winter Fey --> which means her reactions are somewhat predictable if you understand winter fey in general
* Mab cannot harm a mortal directly, but must wait for them to make themselves vulnerable (via a deal) or use the Winter Knight.
* Mab is weaker in the summer months, which means enemies can time their threats to when she is least able to deal with them
* Mab must devote a large chunk of her time and energy to defending the outer gates. If she wishes to be elsewhere, she must assign a substitute (typically Lea).
* The Fey are not easily controlled - as evidenced by Mab's use of unyielding edicts (like nobody can go to the mortal world until dawn as seen in Cold Days) as more subtle/flexible rules are likely to be bypassed by clever fey seeking advantage. I would also argue that the Molly as Lady short story also highlighted the restrictions Mab operates under via her conversation with Molly. She asked Molly for alternatives and Molly could not provide them. That implies pretty strongly that Mab is operating with some pretty significant constraints.
* There are MANY other powers comparable to Mab out there in the universe. Her attention must be split to counter many of them and/or make sure their agenda does not hurt Mab's agenda. For example, the entity behind the "worshipers" in the molly short story has nothing to do with the Outsiders, but was still a threat to Winter's interests. Even though the Outsiders are clearly making a move, Mab cannot afford to ignore the other threats just in case they are acting while Mab is distracted.
* Mab has been surprised several times, so clearly her ability to find useful/critical information is limited.
What am I missing?
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: dspringer1 on September 16, 2019, 05:20:30 PM ---Strengths
* She can hear things spoken at night, especially if her name is spoken. Great source of intelligence
Weaknesses
* Mab cannot harm a mortal directly, but must wait for them to make themselves vulnerable (via a deal) or use the Winter Knight.
* ... For example, the entity behind the "worshipers" in the molly short story has nothing to do with the Outsiders
--- End quote ---
As to the strength, where'd that come from? For the weaknesses, it was stated that the queens couldn't kill mortals uninvolved with the courts, but Aurora the chlorofiend was weak against Murphy, so I'm not exactly sure how that works. I'm uncertain as to how the Outsiders, the Old Ones, and the Oblivion War all relate to one another. There seems to be a lot of overlap.
dspringer1:
The hear things spoken at night might be from a comment in the book - or the myths around the head of the winter I have heard in other contexts. Sorry - cannot point to the reference, but believe it is there.
The clorofiend could distract Murphy, but I doubt it gave her anything more than light bruises. It was so unusual given the context that it became a discussion point in that book between Murphy and Dresden -- and one of the reasons he "caught on" that the Summer Lady was his foe.
g33k:
--- Quote from: dspringer1 on September 17, 2019, 02:47:02 PM ---The hear things spoken at night might be from a comment in the book - or the myths around the head of the winter I have heard in other contexts. Sorry - cannot point to the reference, but believe it is there...
--- End quote ---
I think it's a power often attributed to the folkloric "Queen of Air and Darkness." It certainly is explicitly one of the powers of Andais (the QoAaD in the Merry Gentry novels). IIRC, there are several instances where Harry needs to avoid naming Mab aloud, for worry of attracting her attention. I don't think that DF-Mab automatically hears everything at night, though. Possibly anything she wants to / tries to hear?
--- Quote from: dspringer1 on September 17, 2019, 02:47:02 PM --- ... The clorofiend could distract Murphy, but I doubt it gave her anything more than light bruises. It was so unusual given the context that it became a discussion point in that book between Murphy and Dresden -- and one of the reasons he "caught on" that the Summer Lady was his foe.
--- End quote ---
Harry realized it must be one of the Queens, but there had been some frost/cold used against him (possibly Elaine's magic? Or Lloyd Slate?) so he was presuming at that point a Winter foe. He didn't realize it was Aurora 'til much later (I think in the Mothers' house).
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: dspringer1 on September 16, 2019, 05:20:30 PM ---Strengths
* Fairly low powered god. The combination of Lady, Queen and Mother is collectively equal to a strong god like Hades in power. The Mother has the lion's share of that power, so Mab by herself has to be fairly weak in the god power scale. I would argue that the very weakness of her god power is a strength as she suffers much less restrictions on the use of her power as compared to the more powerful gods. The universe as described clearly has rules that severely limit the more powerful beings. The Mother must be far more constrained than the Queen and the Lady should be less constrained than the Queen.
* She can hear things spoken at night, especially if her name is spoken. Great source of intelligence
* She commands the winter fey. Mother may be stronger, but the queen rules day to day operations
Weaknesses
* Mab cannot harm a mortal directly, but must wait for them to make themselves vulnerable (via a deal) or use the Winter Knight.
* There are MANY other powers comparable to Mab out there in the universe. Her attention must be split to counter many of them and/or make sure their agenda does not hurt Mab's agenda. For example, the entity behind the "worshipers" in the molly short story has nothing to do with the Outsiders, but was still a threat to Winter's interests. Even though the Outsiders are clearly making a move, Mab cannot afford to ignore the other threats just in case they are acting while Mab is distracted.
--- End quote ---
Lots of theories in there - I am curious about where you get your ideas from though. So let's unpack.
Mab is a low powered god - where do you have reference to this? She is clearly stronger than retired gods like Odin and the Lords of the Outer Night. In terms of your scale and the god you have compared her to (Hades), are you saying he is as strong as the Mothers (and by extension, an Archangel)? Because I have yet to hear of any evidence to support that. Archangels, and beings of their level (the Mothers, the Walkers etc) are beyond mere gods like Hades. But I am open to a discussion of an alternate point of view.
I don't believe that her power works like Anduriel's, in that she can hear all things of the night. Her title as Queen of Air and Darkness, is more to do with the human elements (reason and savagery) than the physical phenomena. Which isn't to say she has no influence (she rescued Harry from the cold dark waters of Lake Michigan) but I think this ability has never even been hinted at in the series. Her ability to hear her name is more to do with being supernatural, even Toot-toot has that.
Mother Winter serves more like the Chair of the Board, the ultimate ruler. She doesn't do day-to-day operations as she has duties and concerns that are much higher and more complex. She is more akin to a force of nature, than merely a steward of a role. As Jim says, you just obey gravity - duh.
Mab may not directly be able to harm a mortal - but she doesn't need to. She has all those other Winter Fae for that. Plus a Knight.
And the worshippers were worshipping a "sleeper" something that the Outsiders wanted released...
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