Author Topic: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"  (Read 510 times)

Offline g33k

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"At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« on: September 07, 2019, 03:02:07 AM »
This is Vittorio's line, near the end of Chap.38 of White Night.

It suddenly struck me:  "At last" ??!?  ???

I mean, the only thing that had just happened was that Madrigal the Schmuck had contracted a severe case of Dead.  Why is THAT the signal to launch Ghoulmageddon?

It seemed like Harry & Carlos were genuinely a surprise, that Vittorio (and Madrigal) weren't expecting them.  So the Ghoulmageddon plan was aimed at the Wraith Deeps already (even a badass like Coul needs a place to stage his uberghouls, time to gather them... the logistics don't end just because you're an archmage).  The aim, evidently, was to decapitate the entire White Court -- Raith, Malvora, and Skavis -- in one blow (presumably placing King Vittorio on the throne, but who (besides Cowl) really knows, at this point?).

The thing is, Vittorio could (I'd say should!) have performed the beheading as soon as everyone was there:  by waiting, he lets various plots and plans advance, possibly causing one or more of the targets to flee the event being held in their honor, and blunting the strike.

Even after Team Dresden arrived, there was this interval while the Schmuck sent for weapons.  Everyone was lounging around looking forward to the show; guards were, if not lowered, at least a defcon step less primed:  everyone WANTED the show, and DIDN'T want it disrupted.  So they had all pulled their horns in, to not give offense, not Start Something that might interfere with the spectacle to come...  THEN, if ever, Vittorio could have gotten a surprise-attack launched while everyone was waiting for the Party To Start.

But Vito waited until Madrigal died; then he broke cover and went all Igor/ArnaudAmalric on them.

Why then?

I'm not clear else what was going on that night, but I'm pretty sure something else happened that I didn't notice...

Anyone?

Bueller?

Offline peregrine

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2019, 04:39:02 AM »
Because if Harry and Carlos roll up to a cave full of dead vampires and full ghouls, we don't get the big impressive wizard duel.

Offline Arjan

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2019, 05:48:07 AM »
Because that was his backup plan. Vito was possessed by an outsider, Lash explicitly said so. With hindsight it might be a nemesis infection. Placing his family on top and Vito in a good place to take over was probably Cowl preferred outcome but that failed so killing everyone was his second best option.
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Offline Avernite

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2019, 07:19:43 AM »
Indeed, and maybe Vittorio disagreed with Cowl about which plan should have priority.

Losing Madrigal, then, was the sign of losing the duel.

Alternatively, maybe Madrigal knew too much; if he lived and the Ghouls had been sent, he might've represented a big security risk by being able to figure out Vito's sponsors. With him dead, noone could put together anything more than 'it was Cowl and the outsiders'.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2019, 12:44:27 PM »
The attack happened when it was supposed to happen.  The phrasing makes sense if you posit that the timing was prearranged. The attack was to go off at some arbitrary time.  Since Vittorio would have no idea when everyone would be at the party, he set a time that would give them time to gather. Madrigals death had nothing to do with it.

And what peregrine said.

Offline Kindler

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2019, 02:42:44 PM »
I tend to think that Ghoulmageddon 2: The Ghoulening—This Time it's More Violent was a fallback plan if Vittorio failed to unseat Raith. I think the Black Council/Cowl/Nemesis/The Outsiders wanted to bring the White Court under its control, not kill it. Kinda mirrors Lady Ortega's plan to improve her status in the Red Court in Changes, which Harry also foiled, but with extreme-r prejudice.

It makes sense, if you think about it. Papa Raith's magic resistance has long been speculated to originate from a pact with or sponsorship from Outsiders, right? Lara...subjugated him, so Outsiders don't have de facto control over the White Court any longer. They wanted their toys back, or, if they couldn't have them, they wanted to break them so nobody else could, either.

Offline g33k

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2019, 03:24:40 AM »
... Papa Raith's magic resistance has long been speculated to originate from a pact with or sponsorship from Outsiders, right? Lara...subjugated him, so Outsiders don't have de facto control over the White Court any longer. They wanted their toys back, or, if they couldn't have them, they wanted to break them so nobody else could, either.

Now this is a very interesting thought!
I want to mull the implications a while.

It's interesting also that Harry reveals the "cull the herd" plan to have been Lara's all along -- though apparently versions of it are known for centuries -- but the Outsiders don't enact ANY plan to move against the WC until Lara takes Papa Raith away from the Outsiders (if that's what actually happened, of course).

Thank you for this idea!
 

Offline peregrine

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2019, 05:06:58 AM »
Depends on what you mean by the plan being "hers."

It's entirely possible that while she gave the idea to the other two, she didn't specifically want to implement it.  Just that she gave the other guys a bad idea to play them.

Offline forumghost

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2019, 10:19:22 PM »
Depends on what you mean by the plan being "hers."

It's entirely possible that while she gave the idea to the other two, she didn't specifically want to implement it.  Just that she gave the other guys a bad idea to play them.

That was certainly my interpretation.

"These idiots are a threat to me. I'll give them a dumb-guy-dumb-plan, buy some popcorn, and watch as Dresden Dresden's them" was probably her real plan.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2019, 10:43:32 PM »
Because that was his backup plan. Vito was possessed by an outsider, Lash explicitly said so. With hindsight it might be a nemesis infection. Placing his family on top and Vito in a good place to take over was probably Cowl preferred outcome but that failed so killing everyone was his second best option.
JB made a tongue-in-cheek retcon WoJ confirmation of the Sharkface/Before-was-possessing-Vitto theory.  But I don't think he was being remotely serious.  He just thought it was an interesting idea.

I'm not sure I'd say he was possessed by Nemesis, but I'd agree that he could have been tainted by Nemesis.  In that sense, the "masquerade" could be the entire cat's-paw culture of the Whamps.  Vitto became so corrupted that he resented the thing he was bound to, just like Aurora bucked balance, and Denton bucked justice, etc, etc.

And the "masquerade" he was ending was the entire Court.

Offline g33k

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2019, 09:42:31 PM »
... I'm not sure I'd say he was possessed by Nemesis ...

Lash -- in her few moments between flipping onto Team Dresden, and taking the psychic bullet -- specifically ID'ed Vito as being possessed by an outsider.  We don't really know which, but I think we can take her ID as definitive, and her loyalty in that scene as a truth (even though we know JB is a lying liar who would lie to his own Mama if he thought it'd mess with the fans).
 

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2019, 11:58:09 PM »
Lash -- in her few moments between flipping onto Team Dresden, and taking the psychic bullet -- specifically ID'ed Vito as being possessed by an outsider.  We don't really know which, but I think we can take her ID as definitive, and her loyalty in that scene as a truth (even though we know JB is a lying liar who would lie to his own Mama if he thought it'd mess with the fans).
Sure, but I'm one of those folks that thinks that the corruption mentioned in Cold Days isn't exclusive to Nemesis.  I think it's inherent to outsider magic, and Nemesis can peak in on folks and potentially stoke the corruption, but it's not him/her/it.  So I can see where Vitto was possessed by a generic outsider, which corrupted him, and allowed for the twisted loyalties we've attributed to Nemesis.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2019, 11:12:30 PM »
Because if Harry and Carlos roll up to a cave full of dead vampires and full ghouls, we don't get the big impressive wizard duel.

Yes to this.

The attack happened when it was supposed to happen.  The phrasing makes sense if you posit that the timing was prearranged. The attack was to go off at some arbitrary time.  Since Vittorio would have no idea when everyone would be at the party, he set a time that would give them time to gather. Madrigals death had nothing to do with it.

And what peregrine said.

Yes to this.

It makes sense, if you think about it. Papa Raith's magic resistance has long been speculated to originate from a pact with or sponsorship from Outsiders, right? Lara...subjugated him, so Outsiders don't have de facto control over the Whte Court any longer. They wanted their toys back, or, if they couldn't have them, they wanted to break them so nobody else could, either.

Yes, to this.

It's interesting also that Harry reveals the "cull the herd" plan to have been Lara's all along -- though apparently versions of it are known for centuries -- but the Outsiders don't enact ANY plan to move against the WC until Lara takes Papa Raith away from the Outsiders (if that's what actually happened, of course).
Depends on what you mean by the plan being "hers."  It's entirely possible that while she gave the idea to the other two, she didn't specifically want to implement it.  Just that she gave the other guys a bad idea to play them.

Yes to this.

That was certainly my interpretation.

"These idiots are a threat to me. I'll give them a dumb-guy-dumb-plan, buy some popcorn, and watch as Dresden Dresden's them" was probably her real plan.

Yes to this; and I like the way you put that.

Wow!  I must be in a very agreeable mood today.  I better not go near anyone I know who likes to borrow money. Not today, and maybe not the rest of the week.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2019, 04:06:38 PM »
It makes sense, if you think about it. Papa Raith's magic resistance has long been speculated to originate from a pact with or sponsorship from Outsiders, right? Lara...subjugated him, so Outsiders don't have de facto control over the White Court any longer. They wanted their toys back, or, if they couldn't have them, they wanted to break them so nobody else could, either.
My only objection to this line of thinking is that Papa Raith has probably not been acting in the Outsider's best interest since Mama Dresden cursed him, so why wait 30 years to make a move?

Offline Arjan

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Re: "At last the masquerade ends! Kill them! Kill them /all/!"
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2019, 08:18:52 PM »
My only objection to this line of thinking is that Papa Raith has probably not been acting in the Outsider's best interest since Mama Dresden cursed him, so why wait 30 years to make a move?
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