The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Souls and Ghosts.
toodeep:
--- Quote from: Arjan on January 16, 2020, 03:25:11 AM ---I read it I just did not find it convincing in the light of the evidence I and others showed. You are too convinced that all shades are ghosts because google said so and explain everything in that light. You can do so but I do not think that is always the most likely explanation.
--- End quote ---
Yah, nope. You didn't read very thoroughly then; because I specifically pointed out in that post that:
--- Quote from: toodeep on January 14, 2020, 10:11:39 PM ---I. Shade is not just used to describe Stuart, Harry, and Capriocorpus in the book. Sir Stuart says that many postal workers leave shades behind....
--- End quote ---
Therefore, it is clear the term shade is not used that decisively in the book. I did use the term, and then defined, it in my post for clarity because for the purposes of conversation on the board it is useful to have a term that equals ghost plus soul, but I have no attachment to the term, nor is it critical to my argument in any way. I have had no previous discussions about the term, and this is the first presentation of these points and none of them have been refuted by previous posts of which I am aware. If you would be kind enough to provide a cogent rather than dismissive response that actually addresses what you feel the countervailing evidence is I would appreciate it.
Mira:
I think we are trying to split hairs over a very grey area. As Mab says, "death is a grey word.." There is a huge spectrum when it comes to it from slightly alive, mostly dead, to all dead.. I think the terms, soul, spirit, ghost, shade also fall on a spectrum.. According to Uriel, we are not bodies with a soul, we are souls with a body, so when the body dies, what is left is the soul.. But then it gets murky, and in my opinion a huge grey area like death.. Is Captain Murphy merely a soul that isn't ready to be judged? But is Sir Steward still a soul because he is very much a ghost?
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Arjan on January 15, 2020, 10:38:09 AM ---Because magical talent is often inherited so morty's talent makes it more likely that his ancestors had the same talent.
Sir Stuarts Shade having such a strong and lasting presense supports that idea as well. It points to a strong spirit in life which points to spiritual power which is what an ectomancer needs to fuel his magic. So Sir Stuart was maybe possibly the progenitor of a line of ectomancers. So this is good evidence that Sir Stuart has a soul?
Morty being an ectomancer just makes it more likely that Sir Stuart had the talent to stay behind as a shade just like Morty can probably do so if he wants to.
--- End quote ---
Dresden doesn't have the same affinities as his mother. He is similar to Eb in that he is a slugger. We don't really know enough about how talent is passed on to make a strong case for anything other than it is likely inherited and has to do with exposure to magic while developing.
--- Quote from: Arjan on January 15, 2020, 11:23:49 AM ---Knowing Uriel? Everytime he turns up souls are the only thing he cares about. The only thing he thinks are really important. It is all about souls with Uriel. Everything he does is about souls.
Empoying Sir Stuart is about souls as well
--- End quote ---
But that doesn't mean Sir Stuart has a soul. Also, he says it's about "freedom" in this book, but I would argue that freedom requires a soul in the DF. In the panel discussion, Jim implies that humans are the only one making choices (exercising freedom).
@toodeep: What logic that leads from your factual data points? Harry went to Chicago Between. So? He also went to Chicago. Does that mean that everything in Chicago has to have a soul? Angels are active in the material world as well. We've see Uriel several times. We see the angel of death with Fr. Forthill. I don't see how Chicago Between being different from the material world would indicate that you have to have a soul to be there.
Your point two is your best point and why I am suspicious that Sir Stuart isn't just a ghost. If you look to the second post in this thread, you can see I said "Captain Murphy's task force seemed to be more than ghosts." I'd say Uriel's quote that you refer to proves it, except that he implies that "What Comes Next" is either Heaven or Hell (or something similar to our conceptions of such). But what comes next for Harry is Earth. So what comes next is demonstrably not limited to a place only souls can go to.
@Mira: Jim specifically says there are many different kinds of spiritual entities in the DF. I think souls, ghosts, creatures like Bob, etc. could all properly be called "spirits" but a ghost couldn't be called a soul and a soul couldn't be called a spirit. Now that doesn't mean that be a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
Yuillegan:
Bad Alias has hit on an important point here, and Mira is also right too. We are splitting hairs here.
However. PLEASE refer the my original post where Jim explains the difference between SOULS and GHOSTS. This isn't my speculation or someone else's. This is Jim explaining his ideas about the universe he has created. Use this to inform your theories please, as this whole thread is starting to become derailed into arguments.
toodeep:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on January 17, 2020, 03:46:21 AM ---@toodeep: What logic that leads from your factual data points? Harry went to Chicago Between. So? He also went to Chicago. Does that mean that everything in Chicago has to have a soul? Angels are active in the material world as well. We've see Uriel several times. We see the angel of death with Fr. Forthill. I don't see how Chicago Between being different from the material world would indicate that you have to have a soul to be there.
Your point two is your best point and why I am suspicious that Sir Stuart isn't just a ghost. If you look to the second post in this thread, you can see I said "Captain Murphy's task force seemed to be more than ghosts." I'd say Uriel's quote that you refer to proves it, except that he implies that "What Comes Next" is either Heaven or Hell (or something similar to our conceptions of such). But what comes next for Harry is Earth. So what comes next is demonstrably not limited to a place only souls can go to.
--- End quote ---
To try to address your points somewhat in order:
1. Harry went to Chicago as well as "in-between" thus indicating that "in-between" is nothing special. - My points are lines of evidence, one chair leg alone can be called a stick, but together they are chair legs. It goes with the other points in that we know Harry has a soul and he went there. Alone it is meaningless, but when combined with the other points that everything we saw there had a soul (or just flat out was a soul, which might be the difference between "in between" and the spirit world Chicago). Honestly I think the stronger point of them was that while he drove around with Carmichael he saw no wraiths or other remnants of ghosts, while he often saw those things in spirit-Chicago. The only things active there were/had souls.
2. Angels everywhere - I don't consider Uriel much of an indicator since he now comes when Harry calls. Your point about the angel of death was a good one, but I will note was explicitly there to guard Forthill's soul. Honestly it strengthens the arguments about angels only being involved where there are souls - and that guard angel "in betwee" appeared to be permanently stationed there.
3. "What comes next" may not be heaven or hell, might be applicable to ghosts - Again, not that strong an argument. We are a soul, we have a body. Ghosts can't possess people according to Stuart, that is the pervue of demons. So for Harry to go into his body, maybe for any ghost to go into any body (i.e. capriocorpus) they need to have their soul along with them.
But as I've been writing this I started thinking more about the nature of in-between and what it might mean. In between consisted of "everything that might have been." That seems to me like a mashing together of all the different realities. We know other realities exist because we've been told about Mirror mirror, and I think we've been given two glimpses of them or things connecting to them - In between, and Harry's dream in Skin Game where he contacts Molly. I can't help but assume this is going to be important in the future, but I can't quite see how it applies right now. But it did make me question what happens with souls when new realities are created. We are going to see a reality created by a Harry making a different choice than the one he made previously in the books. Before that choice there was one reality, one Harry (ignoring all the other multiverses for this), and 1 Harry soul. Afterward there was 2 of each. Copying bodies etc is no big deal, but suddenly having two souls for every ensouled creature seems like a really big deal! Did the souls split, did God make a copy, do they share a soul? Inquiring minds want to know! Considering alternate Harry is supposed to summon him to get him dead, I assume they don't share a soul and will either be saved or damned on their actions alone.
I'm assuming angels and a bunch of other beings span the multiverse, though. I expect there is only one "lasciel" for instance, though I assume she has a different coin and host in each reality. The perception of the other realities helps them with their "we know so much" routine because they know how the exact same action might have turned out in a neighboring reality.
I can't help but wonder if that helps reflect on the nature of souls and reality and that only souls can go in-between, but there is certainly nothing certain in these thoughts.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version