The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Souls and Ghosts.

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Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: peregrine on September 06, 2019, 02:18:32 AM ---Yeah.  Angels don't have souls.  Angels are souls.

--- End quote ---

Yeah except as I stated in the OP, as Uriel (and C.S. Lewis) say, "You are a soul, you have a body".

Which I suppose could then beg a really interesting question - if both humans/mortals are souls, and Angels are souls, are humans/mortals and Angels one and the same? Perhaps at different ends of the spectrum? Angels are described as timeless (beyond time and space) just like mortal souls...there is clearly a strong relationship. Hmmm....

@Morriswalters: I tend to agree, I am getting sick of Bob being so unreliable. Why have a talking head otherwise? I know Jim enjoys it, but as a storytelling mechanic it becomes a bit lazy and annoying. The problem is that you begin to not really trust Bob, which then makes his scenes feel drawn out and somewhat irrelevant. I know it is a balance thing but surely there are more elegant ways to limit Bob and his impact on the story.

Curiously, we can actually tell Bob is wrong about a fair few things in that passage. Harry has in the past made it clear that some beings (such as Angels) are not just pure spirit, but are a mix of physical and spirit. Think back to the conversation with Kim Delaney in Fool Moon. Now admittedly, that might be retconned by now - but many beings actually fit that description still. Gods, immortals etc. And Harry says to Bob "So what you're saying is that soulfire doesn't let me do anything new. It just makes me more of what I already am" But in Cold Days, when Harry contests Mother Winter's will, he has the exact same revelation and says Bob didn't truly understand soulfire. Which is curious, because in this scene Bob agree with him. So which is it? Does Bob know what he is talking about or not?

Bad Alias: Thanks for bringing that to my attention. It is indeed curious that Jim often also describes magic as the forces of creation. And yet, there is a somewhat different quality to soulfire. But it is also described the same way. And Souls are described as a fundamental part of reality, an echo of Creation. So perhaps one could interpret that you need some kind of soul in order to work magic. However as we know, that isn't always the case. Many creatures of the Nevernever can work magic and don't have souls. And Necromancy seems to fly directly in the face of that (being fueled by the power of death, not life), let alone whatever fell power the Outsiders use. Perhaps Harry doesn't yet fully understand the broader nature of magic, or perhaps Jim's poetic phrasing is leading us in the wrong direction. Whatever the case, there is definitely a link and a mystery.

By the way, I wasn't saying that choice doesn't matter to the soul (in fact I said choice was vital to the soul). I was more referring to the fact that Jim had said that basically souls are largely unaffected by mortal events. Which I agree, seems contrary to their importance and relevance in the series. They seem to both be affected and affect everything around them. Perhaps this is one of those intentional discrepancies by Jim (such as the Fae being both from Mortal origins AND growing from dew drop creatures into powerful beings based on importance) and we are missing vital information that bridges the gap. As for the destruction or damning of souls...I think something Jim said sort of clarified this. He talked about how people can lose their souls everyday without any supernatural interference by being terrible humans. I think Serack had an excellent theory about the nature of souls and their components. It was similar to the Egyptian belief that a soul has many parts.

Consider this though - both Carmichael and Malcolm Dresden seem to be aware of more than the reality Harry perceives, and Malcolm seems aware of Harry's future. Perhaps they experience all time at once, like Angels do. Uriel certainly seems to.

Bad Alias:
If angels exist outside of time, then that could explain their perceived lack of choice. Their choice(s) exist(s) in the past, present, and future simultaneously. It's not that they can't chose, they have already chosen. There is probably some wiggle room for choice when they interact with humans or handwaived as "beyond humans simple linear understanding of time." A mystery in the Catholic sense of the word. (A thing that is that cannot be fully comprehended).

Avernite:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on September 06, 2019, 07:08:44 PM ---If angels exist outside of time, then that could explain their perceived lack of choice. Their choice(s) exist(s) in the past, present, and future simultaneously. It's not that they can't chose, they have already chosen. There is probably some wiggle room for choice when they interact with humans or handwaived as "beyond humans simple linear understanding of time." A mystery in the Catholic sense of the word. (A thing that is that cannot be fully comprehended).

--- End quote ---

Alternately, it's just an outgrowth of 'the more powerful, the more constrained'. IF that is a fundamental part of reality, as the books indicate but never spell out, then maybe Angels are so powerful they literally cannot go against their purpose without going against reality (or the natural order, whatever it is Lucifer did).

Of course, the case of Lasciel suggests angels CAN choose to play both sides, so maybe they're not utterly constrained as such; they're just operating on a level where they 100% KNOW that the road to hell is paved with good intentions; as soon as they swerve from their purpose a bit, they know they're going the path of the Fallen, and it scares them onto the straight and VERY narrow (and, by extension, any Angel who deviates knows he's falling anyway so why bother not Falling all the way at once?)

Yuillegan:
Bad Alias: Oooh I like that. And it makes sense with what Uriel says when Harry asks him to fix his back (H: "Help me" U: "I've already done what I can" H: "But you haven't done anything!" U:"From your perspective, it would seem that way"). It also matches up with how Gods interact - Vadderung is more Mortal because he is involved in events, when you are outside of events you are less mortal but have less control. Like the Gods who appear to be dormant or sleeping, it is just from mortal perspective, they are just interacting with the time stream differently.

Avernite: A valid argument I think, especially in the sense of Power has Purpose, but I am not sure that Angels know everything in that way. We know that Angels have some version of Intellectus. But to what extent we don't know. I think it's all about the level of involvement. The more you participate, the less power you can use without consequence. I mean, we know that immortals are only truly vulnerable during conjunctions such as Halloween and places like Chicago-over-Chicago. If you were immortal, why would you show up if you were so vulnerable? My take is because of the "feeding, run free" thing. They can become stronger this way. But if an Angel already knew all that would happen to them...wouldn't they really just be going through the motions of their own life? Puppets dancing on the string? I don't think that is quite the case. I think they still have some level of autonomy, with heavy restrictions due to their very nature, and therefore can still FEEL (even if it is an illusion perhaps) at least like they have some measure of control over destiny.

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: Avernite on September 07, 2019, 07:33:46 AM ---Alternately, it's just an outgrowth of 'the more powerful, the more constrained'. IF that is a fundamental part of reality, as the books indicate but never spell out, then maybe Angels are so powerful they literally cannot go against their purpose without going against reality (or the natural order, whatever it is Lucifer did).

Of course, the case of Lasciel suggests angels CAN choose to play both sides, so maybe they're not utterly constrained as such; they're just operating on a level where they 100% KNOW that the road to hell is paved with good intentions; as soon as they swerve from their purpose a bit, they know they're going the path of the Fallen, and it scares them onto the straight and VERY narrow (and, by extension, any Angel who deviates knows he's falling anyway so why bother not Falling all the way at once?)

--- End quote ---
I think you've hit upon a few things here. If the more power=more constraint idea is correct, and it has been strongly hinted at, then Lash, the shadow of Lasciel, has far less power than an angel, fallen or otherwise. Therefore, the shadow would have more room to maneuver.

As to the lack of choice angels have due to knowledge, this is almost explicitly stated in Ghost Story. Carmichael tells Harry he can't tell him some things because it would limit Harry's ability to choose. Knowledge limits choice. In Larry Niven's Known Space universe, the Protectors don't have choice because their advanced intelligence eliminates all options but the one best suited to their goals. Further, we have been repeatedly told that knowledge is power. As early as Fool Moon, Harry emphasizes that knowledge is what really makes wizards dangerous. If power constrains and knowledge is power, then knowledge constrains.

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