The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Candidates for future Nemfection?
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 27, 2019, 09:49:40 PM ---
Possible but doubtful that Bianca handled the knife herself.. Or Bianca could very well have been infected, but we will never know because she was killed by the ghosts of her victims. Or she was showing symptoms in the guise of her delusions of grandeur and power..
Also in Cold Days Mab confirms that "it was the knife..." That this is how Lea was infected and from her to Maeve.. So somehow Lea was infected by the knife and in turn infected Maeve, Mab suspected and was able to deal with Lea in time, but not Maeve.. So is Mab wrong about this?
--- End quote ---
Perhaps I wasn't clear. If Bianca wasn't the person who decided to hand out a Nemesis infected gift or gifts, the last thing the real culprit would want Bianca to do is decide to look at the item; perhaps before the party, and pick it up and in the simple act of examining it, become nemfected herself. Seeing as Bianca was studying magic, it might be natural to assume she might want examine such a powerful artifact, both out of curiosity and to make sure it was an acceptable gift or trade item. The best way to ensure that couldn't happen was for the Athame to only infect the individual who used it.
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: kbrizzle on August 24, 2019, 04:50:03 AM ---@Yuillegan
The reason I think that Nemesis cannot affect mortals is exactly because of what Lily says - it changes things that ought not to change. Immortals are incapable of free will, & hence they cannot choose to change themselves even if they so desired.
Mortals however can choose to change, & do so often - what is the added benefit provided by Nemesis here apart from directing the nature of the choice to change? There are several ways Nemesis could influence a mortal’s choice without Nfecting them.
I also find Sells’ story to be more powerful without Nemesis being part of it. The story of a man driven to insanity by his unquenchable thirst for power shows the real pitfalls & dangers of black magic - this is why the WC forbids certain acts, because unchecked these acts lead to people becoming like Sells, Kravos & the beheaded Korean kid.
I take the Gatekeeper’s words about Harry being an obstacle to a lot of Outsider plans for most of the series as almost every bad guy Harry faces in the casefiles is either on the Black Council or being manipulated by them as a cats paw, not necessarily that they are all Nfected.
@Yuillegan & Bad Alias
I like the idea that there are 2 separate things kinds of black magic - the taint on someone’s soul from regular use/ one big use of black magic, & actually using the un-life spectrum of energy (since Harry says that his type of magic uses the life spectrum) to wield black magic.
I think one leads to the other - one cannot wield the un-life spectrum of energy without having a black magic taint on their soul. This is why Harry is adept at necromancy in DB - he has a huge taint on his soul from HWWB (and the fact that he has killed before).
However I do believe that in order to be able to wield magic from the un-life spectrum, one must seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates.
--- End quote ---
I think there's some evidence that indirectly supports your take on things. As someone else pointed out, Lily was getting her information about Nemesis from Maeve, so that makes her a unreliable narrator when it comes to explaining who was or wasn't taken over by it. More specifically, we know it was the wolf pelt belts which turned the FBI agents who used them into crazed killing machines, and we know this because Harry used one of the belts himself. Unless Jim wants to change the narrative of the entire series and reveal that Harry has been nemfected since Fool Moon, which seems like a ludicrous idea, then the FBI agents weren't taken over by Nemesis either. More likely, the wolf pelt belts used a corrupting type of Outsider magic, and nothing more.
So if Lily was wrong about the FBI agents, it's likely she was wrong about Victor Sells too. Harry figured out that someone had to give Victor Sells training, because Sells wouldn't have known how to create something like the three-eye drug on his own. So Victor's teacher introduced him to using Black Magic but didn't warn him about its side effects. Also, it appeared Victor didn't know about the White Council either. Harry had to explain them to Victor. This destroys Lily's conception of events. Victor's teacher is part of what Harry has called the Black Council and it appears they are in league with the Outsiders, or they think they are using the Outsiders, it doesn't matter which is the case.
So it appears to me that only a few high ranking members of the Winter and Summer Courts can be confirmed as direct Nemesis victims. The FBI agents in Fool Moon and Victor Sells in Storm Front and probably Kravos in Grave Peril were only its pawns, but not controlled directly it. They weren't victims exactly either. They all made their own choices to use something they didn't and couldn't fully comprehend.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Perhaps I wasn't clear. If Bianca wasn't the person who decided to hand out a Nemesis infected gift or gifts, the last thing the real culprit would want Bianca to do is decide to look at the item; perhaps before the party, and pick it up and in the simple act of examining it, become nemfected herself. Seeing as Bianca was studying magic, it might be natural to assume she might want examine such a powerful artifact, both out of curiosity and to make sure it was an acceptable gift or trade item. The best way to ensure that couldn't happen was for the Athame to only infect the individual who used it.
--- End quote ---
Yes, however according to Mab, this is how Maeve got infected, up in the air whether or not because Lea let her handle the knife or directly from contact with Lea..
Cold Days page 503
--- Quote ---" A few years back, you got angry. So angry that when you spoke it made people fl;eed from the ears. That is why. Because you figured out that the adversary had taken Maeve. And it hurt. To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
" It was the knife," Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's atame," Mab said in a neutral tone---but her eyes were far away. "The one given to her by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade. That is how the Leananside was tainted--and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."
--- End quote ---
So according to Mab, once infected Lea was indeed able to pass on the infection to another, in this case her daughter... So either the knife was capable of spreading the infection to more than one or the individual once infected could spread it to others.. If you think about it it makes sense, if Bianca was infected by handling it, then giving it to Lea would have no effect save the power trip that Lea was already on.. If only Lea was infected by it there would be no way for her to pass it onto Maeve.. If the enemy wanted to create chaos with in the Winter Court, while Lea alone could cause damage, an epidemic of infection or infestation would create more..
Lady Inez:
Back to the question of future Nemfection, I reckon Harry will be infected, and this will be what causes him to cease being the Winter Knight. Something has to, at some point, since I don't see him staying in that role for the rest of the series, and I don't think Mab would let him go (and let him live) unless she absolutely had to. If Mab (or Molly?) needs to break the infection, it's possible that removing the mantle is necessary. It wouldn't have worked with Lea because of how long she's had her mantle, but Harry or Molly, maybe.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Lady Inez on August 28, 2019, 06:16:36 PM ---Back to the question of future Nemfection, I reckon Harry will be infected, and this will be what causes him to cease being the Winter Knight. Something has to, at some point, since I don't see him staying in that role for the rest of the series, and I don't think Mab would let him go (and let him live) unless she absolutely had to. If Mab (or Molly?) needs to break the infection, it's possible that removing the mantle is necessary. It wouldn't have worked with Lea because of how long she's had her mantle, but Harry or Molly, maybe.
--- End quote ---
Does Lea even have a Mantle? I think she's just personally powerful. Not all powers are "mantles" per se...
I note that Vadderung seems able to put the "Kringle" mantle on, and take it off, more or less at will. I've been suspecting that Harry will learn this trick.
I think the Winter Knight mantle will be needed by Starborn Harry the Wizard in the BAT, where (I suspect) the Outsiders mount a huge offensive. But as you note, there's likely to be some non-Winter Harry between now and then!
Tentatively, I peg "Fight Night" for this. Harry wrestles gods, needs WK-Mantle to be more than a punching-bag, gets respect, one of them teaches him the trick for handling Mantles.
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