The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

How did the Red Court Originate?

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Bad Alias:
I was searching for "parachute."

kbrizzle:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on August 23, 2019, 05:12:56 AM ---Bad Alias & Kbrizzle: Whilst BA and I have no hard evidence that Lord Raith is the first Wamp, he seems a helluva lot stronger than the next Wamp. Lara never would have tried such an overt assault had he been at full strength, and he was almost completely drained. He certainly fits the description that Jim talked about (if a Wamp had strong sorcerer-level powers). He had his 'Kiss of Death' move, a one shot feeding move. Very dangerous in close-quaters. I imagine before Margaret stymied his ability to feed, he would have generally had a big reserve tank of energy (which he likely replenished often). He seemed to have extensive knowledge and powers that his rivals seemed unable to match. None of which make him the oldest, but we really haven't seen or heard of anyone in the White Court coming close. Plus his apparent immunity to magic (even from the Blackstaff - that is incredibly significant, that we haven't even met any other being who is so protected - including the ALL the Faerie Queens i.e. even the Mothers). Whilst Uriel seems to ignore the normal rules a lot of the time, we cannot be sure even he is so protected. So I think that even if he isn't the progenitor of his race, it hardly matters. There is a reason why he became the White King, and the others didn't. I imagine he is one of the oldest at any rate. The White Court is very Darwinian, they don't let threats survive. Rather like humanity - they don't rush to punch everything in the nose that is dangerous to them. They find the appropriate tools and learn as much as they can about their foes. Then they trap or kill them. There is a very good reason why they are still around, and the Reds and the Black Court (who might be overtly stronger), are not.

Kbrizzle: I pretty much agree with everything your saying there. My only point of contention is that the Whites are the oldest. The "Cradle of Civilisation" exists in a lot of places, but Italy isn't one. South America, particularly Peru and Norte Chico, are far older appearing between 4700-3200BC (roughly 5-7000 years old) whereas the Estruscans appeared roughly after 900BC.  Which makes a lot of sense in a way. The Red Court, whilst highly organised and hierarchical, is a theocracy. The White Court is much like the Ancient Romans, with great Houses and Nobles, and a nominal King or Emperor ruling over - a Monarchy. The Whites are more overtly refined and subtle (though not necessarily more complex) than the Reds who are more aggressive and savage. They seem to reflect the periods they may have risen in, just as much as the surrounding culture and area that they came from. The fact that they predate the White Council is not that surprising, considering Merlin would have existed not much earlier than 500C.E. which is 1400 years later...and Merlin formed the White Council. But yes, the Red King is probably at least 4000 years old, if not quite a bit older. He and the Lords of the Outer Night are in a different league to the Whites in terms of raw power. Probably why the Blamps were so hated is they became a significant, if not one of the most significant, Powers in the space of a few decades and/or centuries when normally it takes a few millennia to become a major player and it scared the crap out of everyone.

--- End quote ---
Well we don’t really know how strong the progenitor of the Whamps would be. We do know that Lord Raith has a vast library of arcane knowledge & was adept at using it to further his own goals - perhaps the reason he was so disproportionately powerful compared to other Whamps is because he is magically enhanced? We do know about his magical immunity & suspect it comes from the Outside.

Separately, by the time of WN we see that the other Whamp nobles are openly insulting the White King (calling him “weak & aged” & accusing him of allowing opportunities to “slip through his impotent fingers” etc.) - I don’t think they would be that brazenly insulting against the progenitor of their court.
Lord Raith explicitly points out to Lara at the end of BR that the White Court does not follow the leader of House Raith, rather the White King/ Queen is an earned position. This also implies that House Raith is not the progenitor of their court & that perhaps in the past House Raith was not always in power.
Also, as Harry states in WN, Whamps are supposed to live for centuries - they are not immortal, just extremely long-lived (perhaps because they are so close to humans unlike Ramps or Blamps). So I don’t know why Lord Raith would be considered particularly old. IIRC in BR when Harry & Thomas are walking through the gallery of Raith Sr.’s brood mares, they seem to start in the 15-16th century. If Lord Raith were really ~2000-3000+ years old, I would expect him to start having kids a lot sooner.

None of the major powers of the mortal world in the DV can be protected by something with its origins in the Outside... We know that Outsiders in general are incredibly hard to fight & their magic is almost alien in nature. The only wizards who seem to be effective against them are Rashid, Langtry & Starborn Harry. I wouldn’t be surprised if Uriel or the Sidhe royalty could also deal some damage to Outsiders in a fight. None of the people I’ve mentioned outside of Harry seem to have much of an interest in Lord Raith, so I doubt they fought him. Even at his peak, I wouldn’t like his chances with any of them (perhaps he could take out the Ladies).
Also remember that Lord Raith’s Outsider protection is only magical - it doesn’t protect him from physical attacks. Like Harry almost does in BR, a sufficiently powerful adversary could beat Lord Raith to death despite his protections (hard to do as that would be).

Regarding your point about the Whamps being younger than the Reds: By your logic, Etruscans started their civilization almost 3000 years ago, making the Whamps about that old. I don’t see how a 1000 year difference would make the Whamps particularly more civilized than the Ramps.
Instead my explanation as to why the Whamp hierarchy & customs are the way they are is because they are the closest to humans - sorta like why the Sidhe are much more similar to humans than the other kinds of Fae (they are closest to humans).
Also my point was that wizards predate the White Council, so Latin being their court language doesn’t make wizardry 1500 years old. Similarly just because the Whamps use Etruscan, doesn’t mean that they don’t predate that civilization.

Yuillegan:
Just found an old WOJ that says that Lord Raith is several thousand years old, and has 2 thousand year of paranoia built up.

I would say that even if he isn't the oldest or progenitor, he is probably pretty close.


--- Quote ---How old is Lord Raith?
He’s a couple thousand years old.  He’s got 2 thousand years of paranoia kinda built up.  Plus he’s been absolutely bonkers the past 30 years or so.  He’s hardly functional as a vampire, he’s getting to where he’s not evne functional as a figure head for much longer.  That’s going to be a problem for lara to deal with.
Will we find out about Lord Raith’s library?
There’s kind of a long game going on in the Dresden Files, and Lord Raith has been involved in it in the last couple of cycle’s it’s gone on.  He’s been trying to educate himself about it, and he meant to be a player in it this time it came around, but getting involved with Margret kind of screwed him over.
Lara’s got his library now and knows everything he knows, which explains a lot of her actions.
--- End quote ---
https://youtu.be/4Gmu76ritoQ?t=2510

Bad Alias:
Since the language of the White Court is Etruscan, I'd assume that the Court was founded in the Etruscan civilization which was from 900 B.C. to 300 B.C. according to Wikipedia. Unless Jim meant Raith is literally a couple of thousand years old, his statement is vague enough that we can't say for certain that Raith was around during the Etruscan civilization, but we can't say he wasn't either.

Yuillegan:
My point really is that 1) He is probably the oldest White Court vampire. Power and rank do seem closely aligned with seniority in the supernatural world. 2) The Red King is almost certainly older, and so is the Red Court.

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