The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Denarian Short Story
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Well, we also know that Uriel, an agent for TWG, is willing to work with Mab. He's not willing to work with Nicodemus, and, in fact, does his best to thwart him whenever he has the opportunity.
I don't know how you feel about TWG in the Dresden Files, but I do know that TWG works to ensure that Free Will remains a possibility for certain. It's the Big Limiting Factor on TWG's agents, as a matter of fact. Opposing TWG means, to me, opposing Free Will or Choice.
--- End quote ---
I...tend to view this as slightly more complicated. TWG is certainly in favor of Free Will and Choice. But not necessarily things like informed choice. We see this with Harry at the end of Ghost Story. To me, Uriel pretty clearly manipulates Harry's understanding such that he thinks that he is choosing to move on to the afterlife, when actually he's choosing to come back to life in Mab's lap.
Also, regarding Uriel not working with denarians but working with Mab, a couple of arguments:
1) We can't actually say that he's never worked with denarians (or, more realistically, manipulated denarians into helping him with something), just that we haven't seen him doing so. Denarians have been around a lot longer than the books
2) Just because it suits Uriel's purpose to work with Mab sometimes, it doesn't make Mab any less of a bad guy. It's similar to Harry and Marcone: it occasionally suits Harry's purpose to work with Marcone, but that doesn't change the fact that Marcone's a criminal scumbag.
--- Quote ---And I don't recall Mab torturing any children, nor do I recall any child soldiers. All of those Sidhe and everyone fighting at the Gates seemed to be adults. Pretty sure that would've been significant if Dresden saw otherwise.
--- End quote ---
It's in a short story, Cold Case. No torturing involved, but she takes children away from their parents to endure what seems likely to be extremely brutal training, and then to be forced to fight until they're killed.
kbrizzle:
@nadia
Mab is not a free-willed being, & neither are most of the Fae. The reason Mab has her power is to protect reality itself - this is a fundamental & powerful truth in the DV. Therefore Mab literally transcends good & evil - like Harry says when he likens her to Maeve - Mab is like a force of nature. Almost every action Mab takes is to ultimately protect reality, but she is cold & ruthless by nature which causes some humans to view her as a sort of evil (especially if they don’t know/ understand her purpose).
Mab from Changes onwards comes off as a lot less wantonly cruel, sadistic or evil in general since Harry starts truly working with her.
Additionally she’s known to be good to her word, this cannot be said about Nic, who also seems to have an incestuous relationship with his daughter. Everything about the guy screams evil, except in his own way he thinks he is saving the world - we have no idea what this means to Nic. Where as we kinda know what it means to Mab, so I’m not really getting the comparison...
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Mab is not a free-willed being, & neither are most of the Fae. The reason Mab has her power is to protect reality itself - this is a fundamental & powerful truth in the DV. Therefore Mab literally transcends good & evil - like Harry says when he likens her to Maeve - Mab is like a force of nature. Almost every action Mab takes is to ultimately protect reality, but she is cold & ruthless by nature which causes some humans to view her as a sort of evil (especially if they don’t know/ understand her purpose).
--- End quote ---
I'm not debating the whole free will thing. I'm saying that, in terms of their actions, Mab and Nicodemus are somewhat equivalent.
--- Quote ---Mab from Changes onwards comes off as a lot less wantonly cruel, sadistic or evil in general since Harry starts truly working with her.
--- End quote ---
Which demonstrates that Mab has the good sense to know that she can't push Harry too far without losing him. Nicodemus also comes off as a lot less wantonly cruel, sadistic and evil when Harry is working with him.
--- Quote ---Additionally she’s known to be good to her word, this cannot be said about Nic, who also seems to have an incestuous relationship with his daughter.
--- End quote ---
Three points here:
1) Mab may not lie or break her word, but she's capable of twisting things so much that it doesn't make much difference. In Harry's words (paraphrased) "being unable to lie has in no way inhibited her ability to deceive."
2) I don't think keeping one's word, by itself, is a particularly good marker of whether one is good or evil. To give an obvious example, if someone gives their word to burn down an orphanage full of kids, then breaking their word ends up as the good option and keeping it the evil one.
3) What does Nic's relationship with Dierdre have to do with him keeping or not keeping his word?
--- Quote ---Everything about the guy screams evil,
--- End quote ---
From Harry's perspective. From Fix's perspective, everything about Mab screams evil.
--- Quote ---except in his own way he thinks he is saving the world - we have no idea what this means to Nic. Where as we kinda know what it means to Mab, so I’m not really getting the comparison...
--- End quote ---
We have less evidence for Nic than Mab, but a case can be made that they're both anti-Outsider.
And also, yes, we don't have definitive evidence for what it means to Nic, which means we cannot assume that the ends he is working toward are bad.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on July 17, 2019, 04:44:56 AM ---[1.] Do they [wards keeping magic out]? I don't remember that. Can you tell me where it says so (not doubting, just curious).
[2.] Do thresholds stop the effects of hexing? (For that matter, do they stop the effects of spells a wizard throws while standing outside them?) It would make sense if they did, I suppose, but it never occurred to me before that they would do so.
[3.] Lightbulbs.
--- End quote ---
1. I thought it was in the books, but now I'm thinking it was either in the Paranet Papers or a WoJ. As I don't recall where I got it from, I can't point it out.
2. That's just my theory based on the premises that hexing is magic and thresholds stop (some amount of) magic.
3. Harry keeps light bulbs going in his office (with some difficulty), so I imagine they wouldn't notice any effect that does make it through if my other points are correct.
--- Quote from: Kindler on July 17, 2019, 04:05:38 PM ---I'd categorize Mab more as Spartan than evil.
--- End quote ---
Not so sure I wouldn't categorize the Spartan's as evil, but I'm no expert on the Ancient Greeks.
kbrizzle:
@nadia
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on July 17, 2019, 08:53:38 PM ---I'm not debating the whole free will thing. I'm saying that, in terms of their actions, Mab and Nicodemus are somewhat equivalent.
--- End quote ---
From whose perspective? Summer by its nature is supposed to oppose Mab, so I’m not sure their opinion counts too much here. Mab’s actions led to the end of the Red Court, a bane to most of the other Signatories to the Accords, what has Nic done that compares?
Mab is a fundamental force of nature - the season of Winter. Her actions literally affect every single person in the DV (mostly positively on the whole). Nic is not a force of nature - he is a rogue agent for the good guys at best, at worst he’s a delusional sociopath. The main action he’s undertaken that has affected a lot of people is the Black Plague....
--- Quote ---Which demonstrates that Mab has the good sense to know that she can't push Harry too far without losing him. Nicodemus also comes off as a lot less wantonly cruel, sadistic and evil when Harry is working with him.
--- End quote ---
Does he? He literally has squire Jordan de-tongued in front of Harry for no other reason than to make a petty point; he forces Harry to try & manipulate Anna Valmont into helping them in SG (that’s not how it plays out, but this was Nic’s intention); he makes out with his daughter a couple of times; he betrays them at the end.
Nic also breaks his word in almost every book he’s in, like in DM when he promises to let Harry go if Shiro turns himself over without a fight. Yet he sends Deedee after Harry not a few minutes after this & tries to use an entropy curse on Harry a little later after.
--- Quote ---Three points here:
1) Mab may not lie or break her word, but she's capable of twisting things so much that it doesn't make much difference. In Harry's words (paraphrased) "being unable to lie has in no way inhibited her ability to deceive."
2) I don't think keeping one's word, by itself, is a particularly good marker of whether one is good or evil. To give an obvious example, if someone gives their word to burn down an orphanage full of kids, then breaking their word ends up as the good option and keeping it the evil one.
--- End quote ---
Agreed on the Mab being deceptive thing, however not flat out lying to someone shows integrity. Whatever you want to say about the Fae’s deceptive abilities, they are ALWAYS good to letter of their word (not always the spirit). Nic breaks promises, truces & agreements as he sees fit. While Mab may do some of the same, she is bound to her word in a way Nic is not, & Nic abuses this ability.
Contrast this with Lara Raith who almost always keeps her word - she is a much more honorable bad guy than Nic & that’s saying something.
--- Quote ---3) What does Nic's relationship with Dierdre have to do with him keeping or not keeping his word?
--- End quote ---
It just generally shows what an amoral scumbag he is. I mean there is a special place in Hell for parents who do this to their children. It supplements my argument that he does not think that rules are binding to him.
I don’t think Harry truly believes that Mab is evil, especially not after CD. See my point about Summer above regarding Fix.
--- Quote ---And also, yes, we don't have definitive evidence for what it means to Nic, which means we cannot assume that the ends he is working toward are bad.
--- End quote ---
It’s like in WW2 - just because Stalin opposed Hitler, it didn’t make him a good guy or that any rational person would want to live in Stalin’s Russia. He was useful in beating the Nazis & that was it. I think this will be similar to Nic’s arc.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version