The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Denarian Short Story
kbrizzle:
@Mr. Death
Ah yes, my mistake about leaving the coin in Hades. To be clear, I’m not 100% that this theory is true (there are problems with it), but I think it would be cool twist if it were.
I do like the theory about Mab lying to Nic that the Blood gate demands a blood relation as sacrifice, although if that were the case I could see Nic bringing along a couple of sibling squires & having one sacrifice the other - I mean having Nic sacrifice the only person in the world he loves would require extreme circumstances because Nic would literally think of every other option before he decides to go with killing his daughter.
I feel like there is more to it, especially given their mysterious conversation before he actually drives a knife into her.
peregrine:
If Immortals are the only ones capable of being able to be Nfected, then the Denarians wouldn't be part of that. They're immortal in that they don't die, but they also have Free Will, as shown by the fact that they can give up the coin and seek redemption. They don't have an inviolable nature the way Maeve and others do.
g33k:
--- Quote from: peregrine on July 12, 2019, 03:52:33 PM ---If Immortals are the only ones capable of being able to be Nfected, then the Denarians wouldn't be part of that. They're immortal in that they don't die, but they also have Free Will, as shown by the fact that they can give up the coin and seek redemption. They don't have an inviolable nature the way Maeve and others do.
--- End quote ---
The (human) hosts may still have free will (though I'm unclear if broken madmen like chained-to-the-cliff Rasmussen even CAN have it); but the Fallen, bound within their Denarii...? And of course, the Fallen is where the world-shaking power resides...
kbrizzle:
@g33k
One might even say Arctis Tor shaking power
nadia.skylark:
@Mr. Death: Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to your post. My computer has been refusing to connect to the internet since July 1st, and I only got it working today.
--- Quote ---And the uniqueness is what happens inside the characters' heads. Unless Jim's going to write a bunch of extra short stories, which A. he doesn't really want to do, and B. would make them required reading for the main series, we're just plain not going to see it.
--- End quote ---
Weren't we explicitly talking about whether we'd like Jim to write a short story (or more)? It's been a while, so I might be wrong, but that's what I thought this thread was about.
--- Quote ---Murphy has already flatly refused power from benign and outright good sources, including the one literally powered by the God of her own faith.
--- End quote ---
And picked up power that she knows she shouldn't to help Harry.
--- Quote ---She's seen what the coin did to Harry and recognized -- then and now -- that it was a bad thing for him.
--- End quote ---
And I think she'd be willing to do something that she knows is a "bad thing" for her if she thought that it was the only way of saving Harry.
--- Quote ---Her picking up a coin would not fit with any of that or the character development that came with it.
--- End quote ---
I think it would fit. But then, I've got a far more negative view of Murphy, especially in later books, than lots of people.
--- Quote ---She'd have to be very stupid to ignore everything she has seen with her own eyes.
--- End quote ---
Or very desperate.
--- Quote ---Plus, Jim's said repeatedly she's not getting any supernatural power-ups.
--- End quote ---
True.
On the other hand, Jim's also said that he lies.
But on the third hand, I also know that that's not a particularly good refutation of any particular thing Jim's said, since statistically he mostly tells the truth, so...
--- Quote ---As far as I can recall, the only time Harry has to talk him out of it is in Small Favor, right after they find Hendrix and Gard.
--- End quote ---
Yes, that's what I was referring to.
--- Quote ---Accepting the "monster," which, going by the later books he really has not genuinely done, does not mean he's going to take up a coin.
--- End quote ---
No, but it indicates that it's not totally OOC for him to do so.
--- Quote ---Justine is in trouble because of the one monster already in Thomas, he'd have to be monumentally stupid to think that another monster would help.
--- End quote ---
The WCV thing and the Fallen are pretty different, as I understand them. Also, when did Lasciel's shadow ever try to do anything to hurt anyone Harry cared about? (Point is, I know Harry makes this argument, I'm just not sure if it's valid or if he just made it to convince Thomas.)
--- Quote ---Because, frankly? It's not his plot. It's Harry's, and Harry has basically gone the whole nine yards on it. And he's seen enough of it in Harry and has enough experience fighting his own demon that he'd understand the concept.
--- End quote ---
He saw Harry fight--and win. Because, frankly, Harry saved a lot of lives because he had access to Lasciel's shadow that he couldn't have saved otherwise, with relatively few negative consequences.
--- Quote ---He's half blind and needs a cane to walk, and I think I remember something about him losing a kidney. That seems pretty negative to me.
--- End quote ---
If there was a better option available to him, I would agree with you. But Jim has said explicitly that that was Michael's happy ending--which, as I understand the term, means that it was the best of all possible (or at least probable) outcomes--which doesn't seem negative to me, in that context.
--- Quote ---It's still something that affects him. That there were other, bigger things going on does not negate that.
If it were meaningless, it would not be pointed out so directly in the book.
--- End quote ---
It's been a while, so I may be misremembering, but I believe my complaint here was that none of the negative consequences that the Denarians do manage to inflict last beyond the book they happen in.
So while I agree that it was meaningful at the time, it does not address my problem.
--- Quote ---Harry's field does not extend that far. In an early book, he's in line of sight of Murphy and she's able to safely turn off her computer while he's in the hall just outside her office.
He's in the subbasement of a boarding house and I think in Changes it's mentioned that his only neighbors are a couple elderly people two floors above him. They're fine.
--- End quote ---
1) It's explicitly stated that the more exposure Harry has to tech, the worse and the more likely it is to break. Harry is in his home much more often than he is in Murphy's office.
2) Harry's not just present in his home--he is actively working magic. This worsens the problem dramatically, as we've seen in the books.
3) Harry also has wards, which as a constantly running magic, probably also make things worse.
4) Jim has said in one of his interviews that Harry being in the apartment building causes lots of problems--for the landlady, if no one else.
--- Quote ---Then it's not a story about Nicodemus. It's a story about whoever's perspective it's from.
--- End quote ---
I don't care. I just want to see him win for once. Every other recurring villain gets to have victories--why not him?
--- Quote ---So the guy who nearly killed Harry several times, crippled Harry's best friend and nearly killed Harry's daughter is less threatening than Mab, whose only action directly against Harry has been to make him stab his hand?
--- End quote ---
Yes--because every time Nicodemus has a plan, I can be sure he'll lose comprehensively, whereas every time Mab has a plan, I can be confident that she has a good chance of winning.
--- Quote ---The Fomor are scared of wizards in general and only came into the city because Harry wasn't there. And they haven't won anything on screen. Their biggest on-screen operations have been thwarted by a short mortal woman and a half-mad, half-trained wizard. The "wins" they've had so far are kidnapping people who -- as you would have it -- don't matter.
--- End quote ---
The Fomor have caused comprehensive damage to Chicago and its defenders--and I've said that I would be fine with even an off-screen win for Nic.
--- Quote ---Nicodemus doesn't win "off screen" because he's the type of baddie that whatever plot he's up to needs to be stopped by the main character. He's not going to go rob a bank. He's going to depopulate a major country by unleashing a plague at an airport.
--- End quote ---
His twitter feed makes reference (among other things) to him being responsible for a major hurricane. That seems like something which is both Nic's kind of win, and which can happen off-screen and only be referenced in the books.
--- Quote ---Mab is less evil than Nicodemus. Jim doesn't have to spell that out because it's frankly obvious.
--- End quote ---
No it isn't. If it were that obvious, we wouldn't be having this debate. I think that it's obvious that Mab is either as evil as Nicodemus is, or at least close--but clearly you disagree.
--- Quote ---Mab is going to ask Harry to kill people -- but for a reason, and we learn that her reasons have to do with preserving reality.
--- End quote ---
We don't know what Nicodemus's reason is, and there's some evidence that they might have to do with preserving reality as well.
--- Quote ---Nicodemus is going to actively try to make Harry a worse person, someone who kills because it's convenient. Mab prefers that Harry fight back against her nastier side and wants him to do his own thing.
--- End quote ---
I interpret Mab differently. To me, it seems clear that, while Mab definitely wants Harry to be himself, she also wants him to be a fundamentally darker and less moral version of himself. Or, to put it another way, she wants him to be the Winter version of someone like Rosanna, not someone like Magog's hosts.
--- Quote ---And you think that would be the only consequences for Molly? You don't think Miss Crazy In Love With Harry And Already Tempted AF To The Dark Side would look at Harry taking up a coin and think, "Well, if he's doing it, maybe I should to?"
--- End quote ---
Oh, this would definitely happen. We have WoJ that if Harry had picked up Lasciel's coin in Changes, then Molly would have ended up with a coin as well.
What I'm saying is that, if Michael were the Summer Knight, Molly would view becoming the Winter Lady as being just as bad as canon!Molly would view becoming a Denarian.
And becoming a Denarian has at least two undisputable advantages that I can see: it doesn't erode your soul (as in, you still have a soul, even if it might end up being condemned to Hell) and there's a known exit strategy.
--- Quote ---Such as?
--- End quote ---
I can't list a whole lot, since, while I feel certain that the books have referenced nasty stuff that Mab has done, I haven't had access to my books for a year at this point (with the sporadic exception of Small Favor, which I don't have right now).
For what I do remember:
-She picks Knights that are serial murderers and rapists, and we have WoJ that she does so because she doesn't want to deal with training them--which says a lot about the kind of jobs she has them doing
-the RPG book Paranet Papers implies that Mab had a hand in Stalinist Russia (implies because the RPG works hard not to say anything outright so people can make up their own answers); and there is an unconfirmed WoJ (as in, I've seen someone say that there's a WoJ, but haven't seen the WoJ itself) that all the story elements in Paranet Papers are true in Dresden canon
-the Dresden Files Accelerated RPG has Ivy say that Mab is the inspiration behind the Beauty and the Beast story, and that what really happened was horribly worse.
-Mab is definitely pushing Harry to be less moral--she deliberately pushed Harry to commit cold-blooded murder as a prerequisite to becoming the Winter Knight, and was annoyed that Harry objected to murdering people in Skin Game
-according to WoJ, Lea became Mab's handmaiden because Mab was impressed that "[Lea] took these guys who were out there just seeking to create something beautiful and yet increased [her] dark and evil power"
-the Winter Knight mantle seems to be pushing Harry to be a far worse person than Lasciel's shadow ever did
--- Quote ---At a certain point, it doesn't really matter what his ends are.
--- End quote ---
Weren't you just saying earlier in your post that Mab's ends were a mitigating factor?
And addressing a different post:
--- Quote ---One of several problems I'd have with a Nicodemus perspective is that it might soften his character too much. Learning too much about him may have us start rooting for him in future books.
--- End quote ---
I'm already rooting for him, at least insofar as I want my favorite villain to have some wins against non-Harry people, so that when Harry wins it's more impressive.
--- Quote ---I mean, if you find out that Nicodemus has been doing all of these evil things in order to stop something much worse
--- End quote ---
Lots of people, including me, already think this.
--- Quote ---some might start thinking, "Well, would it really be so bad if Harry lost?"
--- End quote ---
Well, more like "would it really be so bad if Marcone lost to him?" and "would it really be so bad if Harry worked with him temporarily?"
...You know, unlike Harry, I would probably do awful at resisting a Denarian shadow. I am far too easy to convince ;D
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