Author Topic: Who dies in Peace Talks  (Read 2262 times)

Offline Regenbogen

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2019, 09:24:03 PM »
@Mira
No, not off page but maybe in the next book, which imo could easily fit in between Peace Talks and Christmas Eve.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2019, 09:42:45 PM »
A Senior Council member and the Blackstaff snuffing it would have seriously significant consequences, and I don't see those consequences getting a chance to be explored in Mirror, Mirror.

The consequences of the death of a Senior Council member usually don't get much play in the DF. In Turn Coat, it's really the consequence of Morgan's supposed treason that gets the focus. Not really the death of LaFortier. Similar situation with the death of Simon. The focus is more on what that means for Harry in the vote that's about to take place.

One of the things I would like to know a lot more about in the DF, is the White Council. What is it? How does it work? What are the rules? How does apprenticing work? And so on, but Harry is never going to be too involved in all that because of how he came to know the Council, and how it came to know him.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2019, 02:48:56 PM »
But the consequences were explored in Turn Coat, and they came due in Changes; Cristos, who organized the Red Court "conciliation" attempt, and is one of the more likely suspects to poisoning half the wardens and Listens-to-Wind. Imagine if another seat opened up on the Senior Council, or two, or three. And, because the books focus on Harry, we only really got to see what he was doing in Turn Coat/Changes. Everything about the White Council's situation is secondhand information, rumor, and speculation. All we know is that Lafortier was the only voice on the Senior Council who a big bloc of the WC's rank and file felt represented them, and they threatened secession and/or civil war.

The Merlin caved once to prevent a war, and was smart enough not to trust Cristos, especially after Peabody. But he's in a classic Appeasement scenario now; if another seat opens up, that same bloc is going to be demanding another spot. And, since threatening to fight for it worked once, they'll do it again to extort the SC and the Merlin. Plus now they've got "their" guy on the SC advocating for them.

Basically, if a Senior Council member dies in Peace Talks (and the scope of the conflict will, according to Christmas Eve, include thousands dead, so there's a good chance the Masquerade may fall, or start to slip, which'll create a whole host of fresh problems for the White Council), then there is going to be major, major fallout. The Merlin is going to have to choose between civil war and appeasement. That's if he's still alive, too. Part of me wonders if Jim might kill off everyone on the SC except Cristos to take the Merlin title for himself. Though I can also picture Ebenezer surviving and fighting a guerrilla war with the Grey Council, which would be as badass as can be reasonably expected.

All of that aside, I agree with you. I really hope Peace Talks gives us a serious, in-depth look into the White Council, how it works, what the rules are, etc. I want a thirty page infodump on that very topic.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2019, 06:51:40 PM »
I agree that the consequences were/will be huge. I'm just saying it doesn't have to, and likely won't, show up directly on page immediately and in detail in the next book.

There was a good deal of talk at the end of Turn Coat and some visible consequences in Changes, but we haven't even heard mention of Cristos since then. So, my hypothesis is that, if one or more Senior Council members die in Peace Talks, we would get a similar scene to the one in Turn Coat where Eb and Harry discuss the ramifications. We may see something in Mirror Mirror, depending on how much time Harry spends in his reality, but we won't see a whole lot in that book.

Offline g33k

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2019, 09:32:24 PM »
... We may see something in Mirror Mirror, depending on how much time Harry spends in his reality, but we won't see a whole lot in that book.
I expect that in Mirror Mirror, Harry-prime will learn that mirror-Harry is a member of a "Council" (or dare I say... Circle?) that is in full-on Sith-mode.

It'll be interesting to see how much Jim actually pays homage to the various elements of the TOS-Trek episode.
 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2019, 04:22:35 AM »
It's been decades since I've seen it. It's on Netflix. Season 2, Episode 4.

Offline g33k

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2019, 04:49:20 PM »
It's been decades since I've seen it. It's on Netflix. Season 2, Episode 4.

Not just "evil Kirk(tm)" and Spock in a goatee.  The whole Trek'verse "United Federation of Planets" in MM was an Evil Empire.

Hence my expectation that the Dresdenverse "White Council" will be much more Sith-y than otherwise.

I am kinda-sorta thinking that Harry-prime will use the out-in-the-open evil (since nobody is hiding it) to figure out some of what the Black Council / Circle / etc are hiding.
 

Offline Kindler

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2019, 05:05:17 PM »
I'm not sure the White Council could've gone full black hat in twelvish years.

In fact, I think it very well might have been destroyed in the Mirrorverse. So, say, the one decision Harry makes in Grave Peril means that he didn't kick off the war with the Red Court that early. The Reds were already plotting for a war, right? The issue was they didn't have enough time to prepare properly for a decapitating strike. So, instead of Harry making them show their hand early, they bide their time for ten years, and (around Small Favor/Changes) they hit the White Council with everything they've got. Peabody would've had years to work on his mind control plan to make sure the WC was totally unprepared, too. We know that a forewarned White Council still lost one of their strongholds at Archangel, so one caught by surprise may have been totally overrun.

That would certainly remove one of the obstacles for Harry going bad. I recall a few times Harry doesn't take a course of action because the White Council would kill him if he does it. If there's no White Council (or it's a devastated shell of its former self with barely enough influence to still have name recognition), then, well...

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2019, 02:07:42 AM »
I want there to be more about the inner workings of the white council b/c I don't think we've seen enough and it's time Harry got to see it too. I think it'd be helpful knowledge for him when the other council members bite it in the peace talks.
You know, I've never thought about the council itself being gone in the mirror-verse but that's scary possible with the red court and what follows good and bad. I like that idea for more than the black hat one.
I'm still thinking Eb will die, just not when. Tho I'm liking the idea or Carlos or Anastasia sying, as much as I love them.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2019, 07:10:45 PM »
I kind of want Eb to live just to buck the whole "well, in the 'hero's journey, the mentor has to die'" thing. That's not even really the trope. The idea is that the mentor can't walk the hero through everything, otherwise the mentor is the hero. Death is just a lazy way of accomplishing it. Technically, every character who rightfully tells Harry off, offers him advice, or gives him what he needs to finish his journey fits the mentor roll in the hero's journey. Hell, the mentor can even be an object necessary to finish the journey. The concept is so broad that it is probably meaningless.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2019, 11:17:57 PM »
Oh, I agree with you, the whole killing off the mentor thing is such a cliche, but I'm torn between Eb getting killed in PT or somewhere else down the line. Though I think JB will put a refreshing twist on the idea. I just wanna see him cut loose, Changes was just a teaser lol.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2019, 01:10:04 AM »
As much as Ebenezer is a good candidate to die; if we were taking bets I think a lot of people would predict this book is when he would go, I want Eb to live long enough to see Harry get out of being the Winter Knight so that if Ebenezer does die Harry then becomes the Blackstaff, just when he thought his life was becoming uncomplicated.  I think that's something Jim would gleefully do.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 01:17:51 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2019, 10:36:14 PM »
Yeah I feel ya. It'd be cool if Eb was the one who helped Harry get out of the Winter Knight's mantle. I'm not that sold on the idea of Harry becoming the new Blackstaff, just not my cup of tee. Though I do agree that if Harry does become Blackstaff, he'll have to lose his mantle first. But yeah, I can totally see JB doing something like that.
I'm still thinking that Eb would fight L.Raith in PT and I can't really see both of them walking away from that.

Offline g33k

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2019, 03:48:37 AM »
... Though I do agree that if Harry does become Blackstaff, he'll have to lose his mantle first. But yeah, I can totally see JB doing something like that...

If (as I have seen speculated) the Blackstaff itself is "Mother Winter's walking-stick" then putting it into the hands of the Winter Knight looks like all kinds of complications for Harry.

How could Jim possibly resist?

I'm still thinking that Eb would fight L.Raith in PT and I can't really see both of them walking away from that.
Eb already did.  Took him about half a second to immobilize and humiliate her.  It was a display of the kind of overwhelming superiority that cannot reasonably be opposed; and he wasn't even wielding the Blackstaff to do it -- just his own WC badassery...

Harry vs Lara would be something like a close match; advantage Lara if Harry has insufficient prep, advantage Harry if he has time.

Eb is at least a couple of steps up the power scale.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2019, 06:38:22 AM »
If (as I have seen speculated) the Blackstaff itself is "Mother Winter's walking-stick" then putting it into the hands of the Winter Knight looks like all kinds of complications for Harry.

How could Jim possibly resist?

Exactly.

Eb already did.  Took him about half a second to immobilize and humiliate her.  It was a display of the kind of overwhelming superiority that cannot reasonably be opposed; and he wasn't even wielding the Blackstaff to do it -- just his own WC badassery...

Harry vs Lara would be something like a close match; advantage Lara if Harry has insufficient prep, advantage Harry if he has time.

Eb is at least a couple of steps up the power scale.

Unless Lara gets the same protection from magic her dad currently has.  Then Ebenezer has difficulty doing anything to Lara.  My guess is Eb could find something to slow Lara down, but outright killing her would be almost impossible.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 06:40:39 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx