The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Would the Knights have gone after the Denarians in the beginning of SmF if...
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on June 26, 2019, 06:58:59 AM ---No one other than you can save your soul.
--- End quote ---
Basically, that is what the point. If I remember correctly that Harry argues that Michael or Sanya should kill Cassius after he surrendered and gave up his coin because Cassius is a killer and worse.. Michael says and Sanya agrees that it isn't for them to judge Cassius and that he was free now for the rest of his life to redeem himself or not....
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---No one other than you can save your soul.
--- End quote ---
I agree that you have to be the one to make the choice to do the right thing; what I mean by saying that the Knights' job is saving souls is the whole thing in "The Warrior," where Harry basically goes around doing things that end up helping people to do the right thing and improve their lives, even though he doesn't realize it until Uriel points it out. I figure the Knights probably have more awareness of what they're doing, but otherwise...Uriel explicitly describes people doing this as being "warriors for the light" or something--it seems like exactly what the Knights' job is, only they're more focussed on Denarians rather than innocent kids (probably because there are lots of people who would help innocent kids, and not many who would help Denarians and such).
Mira:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on June 26, 2019, 12:29:51 PM ---I agree that you have to be the one to make the choice to do the right thing; what I mean by saying that the Knights' job is saving souls is the whole thing in "The Warrior," where Harry basically goes around doing things that end up helping people to do the right thing and improve their lives, even though he doesn't realize it until Uriel points it out. I figure the Knights probably have more awareness of what they're doing, but otherwise...Uriel explicitly describes people doing this as being "warriors for the light" or something--it seems like exactly what the Knights' job is, only they're more focussed on Denarians rather than innocent kids (probably because there are lots of people who would help innocent kids, and not many who would help Denarians and such).
--- End quote ---
Harry unknowingly helped others to make the "right" choice.. His actions created the climate where the right thing could be done... Though he did prevent Michael from beating to death the guy who would harm his son, that was more direct action.. Knights are a little different, when confronted with an evil action they'd try to stop it like any good person would, but they do not judge the person who did it, nor do they feel it is their place to punish that person... That is why except for that one night Murphy realized she couldn't be a Knight.. All her life she had been a cop and she used her own judgement to stop bad guys and she saw them or judged them as being bad.. When she judged Nic with a "Damn you," after he had surrendered and tried to execute him, she broke the rules and the Sword. Like Murphy, Harry has no problem in punishing those he judges as bad or criminal, he also often repeats that he is no Knight. After the foolishness with Lea has never tried to use a Holy Sword again. Though one wonders if he would have if pushed on the island in Small Favor.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Harry unknowingly helped others to make the "right" choice.. His actions created the climate where the right thing could be done... Though he did prevent Michael from beating to death the guy who would harm his son, that was more direct action.. Knights are a little different, when confronted with an evil action they'd try to stop it like any good person would, but they do not judge the person who did it, nor do they feel it is their place to punish that person... That is why except for that one night Murphy realized she couldn't be a Knight.. All her life she had been a cop and she used her own judgement to stop bad guys and she saw them or judged them as being bad.. When she judged Nic with a "Damn you," after he had surrendered and tried to execute him, she broke the rules and the Sword. Like Murphy, Harry has no problem in punishing those he judges as bad or criminal, he also often repeats that he is no Knight. After the foolishness with Lea has never tried to use a Holy Sword again. Though one wonders if he would have if pushed on the island in Small Favor.
--- End quote ---
"Acting in such a way as to create a climate which encourages/allows people to do the right thing" seems to be a good summary of the Knights' job. Whether they judge people or not seems immaterial to that.
And to relate this back to what I was originally saying: rescuing Marcone would certainly be acting in such a way as to help people do the right thing/reduce the chances of them doing the wrong thing. It would prevent Marcone from being tortured into taking up a coin, would prevent the Denarians from torturing Marcone, would give the Knights a chance to attempt to convince the Denarians they encountered to give up their coins, would prevent the stability Marcone imposed on the Chicago criminal underworld from falling apart (it's been pointed out that it is far easier for Hell to collect souls when there's mass chaos and destruction), and would prevent Harry lying to Luccio to get the White Council's help (as has been pointed out to me on another thread, Michael quite sincerely believes lying to be Wrong).
Mira:
[quote
And to relate this back to what I was originally saying: rescuing Marcone would certainly be acting in such a way as to help people do the right thing/reduce the chances of them doing the Wrong thing. It would prevent Marcone from being tortured into taking up a coin, would prevent the Denarians from torturing Marcone, would give the Knights a chance to attempt to convince the Denarians they encountered to give up their coins, would prevent the stability Marcone imposed on the Chicago criminal underworld from falling apart (it's been pointed out that it is far easier for Hell to collect souls when there's mass chaos and destruction), and would prevent Harry lying to Luccio to get the White Council's help (as has been pointed out to me on another thread, Michael quite sincerely believes lying to be Wrong).
[/quote]
Except Marcone isn't trying to redeem himself in any way, at least not so far.. In my opinion making the trains run on time for the criminal world is hardly doing a service for good...
Yup, Harry lied, which is a sin, he is human.. Michael would also point out that he did it to save a child's life.
--- Quote ---"Acting in such a way as to create a climate which encourages/allows people to do the right thing" seems to be a good summary of the Knights' job. Whether they judge people or not seems immaterial to that.
--- End quote ---
But it isn't... They will let a murder go in the case of Cassius, free to murder again or not, to go unpunished, because it isn't their place to judge him, not their job to try and stop him.. Murphy was unwilling to follow that rule, if she believes someone is guilty, she will judge them so, and either punish them herself or take them somewhere where they can be punished.. Nic knew that that is why he elaborately arranged the fiasco in front of Michael's house in Skin Game then go through the motions of surrender to Murphy, who in turn, judge, tried to punish, and broke a Holy Sword...
But back to Cassius, in his heart he is a bad guy, he had no intention of changing who he is, he gave up his coin only because he didn't want to be executed by either Michael or Sanya... He didn't stop doing bad things, he wanted another coin so he could do them even better, that is why he attacked Harry and tortured him, he thought that Harry had taken up Lasciel's coin and he wanted it for himself.. So how did that work out for him and the world around him?
The original point, the Knight's job is to gather up the coins of the Fallen, to free the souls they enthrall.. Once free, those souls can either go about the business of redeeming themselves, or continue the same corrupt life they lived before minus the aid of the coin, it's pot luck really... Most
of the souls who chose to take up a coin were bad in the first place, that is why they were tempted to do it.. Surrendering a coin to save their own life, doesn't change their hearts... On the other hand Sanya did give up his coin because he became disgusted with what he was doing what the coin was helping him to do, he rejected it... That is so rare that Heaven granted him a Holy Sword..
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