The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Proven Guilty speculation, because, why not?
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---So I told him all about the last few days, especially my dealings with Lily and Fix, Maeve, and Mab. Ebenezar listened to it all in silence.
“What a mess,” he said when I finished.
“Tell me about it.” I sipped at my beer. “You know what I think?”
He finished his beer and shook his head.
“I think we got played.”
“By the Summer Lady?”
I shook my head. “I think Lily got suckered just as much as we did.”
He frowned and rubbed at his head with one palm. “How so?”
“That’s the part I can’t figure,” I said. “I think someone set Molly up to be a beacon for the fetches. And I’m damned sure that it was no accident that those fetches took Molly to Arctis Tor when it was so lightly defended. Someone wanted me there at Arctis Tor.”
Ebenezar pursed his lips. “Who?”
“I think we got used by one of the Queens to one-up one of the others, somehow. But damned if I can figure out how.”
--- End quote ---
Given Cold Days you should be able to answer these questions pretty definitively. I'll set one bound. Nobody was involved that we haven't been introduced to by Cold Days.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---You do realize that this is called making stuff up?
--- End quote ---
:o I'm making stuff up?
You claimed that faeries are the only beings in the entire Dresdenverse capable of using illusion magic without detection, despite the fact that
A) There is no evidence that I recall that faeries are particularly undetectable
B) There is definitely evidence that other beings can use illusion magic, and
C) There is no evidence that other beings can't be undetectable while using illusion magic.
I responded by saying that I was confused, due to these facts.
You responded with something that had nothing to do with what I was saying (since you said something about what happened in Proven Guilty but nothing about faeries, whereas what I was saying had nothing to do with Proven Guilty and everything to do with faeries).
I responded by clarifying what I was saying.
You responded with more Proven Guilty stuff that wasn't what I was talking about.
I responded by briefly addressing the Proven Guilty stuff, and again clarifying the bit of what you had said that I found problematic.
You, rather than providing evidence or reasoning to support your completely untenable claim, then requested I provide a list of hypothetical beings who would disprove your claim (despite your claim having, to my knowledge, no supporting evidence whatsoever, and therefore being in no need of disproving).
I figured, "why not?" and came up with a list, using words like "maybe" and "possibly" since it was, after all, speculation.
And now you're saying that I'm the one who's making things up? At least I don't make completely unsupportable claims and then act as if they are facts.
And for the record, while most of my list was speculation, both the Genowska (spelling?) and Goodman Gray have canonical support for being able to use magic/magic-like abilities to disguise themselves undetectably.
morriswalters:
That was probably poorly chosen phrasing. And I apologize if you are offended.
Of all the things you suggested Goodman Grey is the only one known to be a shape shifter and he can't or didn't use magic. I can spell genoskwa either, but he doesn't appear to be a shape shifter. Molly has never been shown to assume a different outer shape, she's the invisible girl and a copy monster. The rest never show up in the books, or if they did I missed them.
A)Jenny Greenteeth sits in for Georgia at Billy's wedding, Billy never catches on.
In Summer Knight Harry takes some time to catch on to what Mab is.
And both Mab and Lea have used their magic to mimic Molly and random people.
B)Listens To Wind is the only human in the books to shape shift and use magic.
The Whites don't do it and neither did the Reds, if you don't count their flesh mask.
Gods or at least angels do.
If any of the Denarians can they've never done it in story.
I don't remember the name off hand but the were human who teaches the pack how to turn into wolf does.
The Hags do in the comic books and Dresden never tips to it until the end.
And last but not least the Ghouls can apparently pass.
C)I'm not certain that the Fae can conceal themselves if you touch them, it's never come up. But they don't give off an aura like a wizard and they can use phones.
And yet again my apologies.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---That was probably poorly chosen phrasing. And I apologize if you are offended.
--- End quote ---
Don't worry about it. 80-90% of my offense was caused by having gotten 4 hours of sleep, followed by 8-9 hours of learning new skills (workshops are fun, but not when you forget you're taking them until the evening before they happen, and you have other stuff you need to get done before then!).
--- Quote ---Of all the things you suggested Goodman Grey is the only one known to be a shape shifter and he can't or didn't use magic.
--- End quote ---
True, but shapeshifting accomplishes the same thing as magic when it comes to disguising yourself as someone else, which I believe is what is being discussed.
--- Quote ---I can spell genoskwa either, but he doesn't appear to be a shape shifter.
--- End quote ---
No he isn't (apart from the Denarian thing) but he can at least use veils (which are a subset of illusion magic) undetectably. Based on this and his skill with earth magic, I figure it's a pretty safe bet that he could learn to use other illusion magic (and thus gain the ability to impersonate others) undetectably if anyone could give him a good reason for doing so.
--- Quote ---Molly has never been shown to assume a different outer shape, she's the invisible girl and a copy monster.
--- End quote ---
Molly's illusion powers can explicitly make her look like other people. She is also less prone to hexing things than Harry, and we know that even Harry can suppress the hexing thing for a little while. Thus, I figure that an older version of Molly has something like a 90-95% chance of being able to suppress hexing and other magic-detecting effects (maybe the other magic-detecting effects aren't suppressed, she just veils them from notice) while using illusion magic.
--- Quote ---The rest never show up in the books, or if they did I missed them.
--- End quote ---
They don't show up.
--- Quote ---Jenny Greenteeth sits in for Georgia at Billy's wedding, Billy never catches on.
--- End quote ---
But Billy, to my knowledge, has never shown any particular ability to detect the supernatural (except maybe smell, and is also understandably distracted by the wedding.
--- Quote ---In Summer Knight Harry takes some time to catch on to what Mab is.
--- End quote ---
She's Mab, Harry's a wreck, and he still catches on within five minutes or less.
--- Quote ---And both Mab and Lea have used their magic to mimic Molly and random people.
--- End quote ---
True for Lea, but when did Mab do it?
--- Quote ---Listens To Wind is the only human in the books to shape shift and use magic.
--- End quote ---
Well, technically the Alphas all shapeshift due to a spell, so they are using magic by definition--but I get your point.
However, weren't we mostly talking about illusion magic? I'd thought shapeshifting was just an alternate option for that.
--- Quote ---The Whites don't do it
--- End quote ---
True.
--- Quote ---and neither did the Reds, if you don't count their flesh mask.
--- End quote ---
I forgot about these guys! Why don't you count their flesh mask? According to Changes, some of them can use it to look like other people (one of them looked like Susan for the purpose of hiring a guy to kill Dresden).
--- Quote ---If any of the Denarians can they've never done it in story.
--- End quote ---
True, but Skin Game shows us that Denarians don't have an anti-technology aura (otherwise Tessa would have triggered the anti-wizard defenses at Marcone's bank) so any Denarian that learns illusion magic would be able to use it as undetectably as a faerie.
--- Quote ---I don't remember the name off hand but the were human who teaches the pack how to turn into wolf does.
--- End quote ---
Terra West.
--- Quote ---The Hags do in the comic books and Dresden never tips to it until the end.
And last but not least the Ghouls can apparently pass.
--- End quote ---
I forgot about these guys too!
morriswalters:
@nadia.skylark
I'm discussing characters in the book who can appear as a human but can summon a creature of Winter. The summoner in particular is someone who has done magic that is familiar to Harry. For the purpose of this theory, I would like the summoner and Sandra Marling to be one and the same.
For the purpose of this theory the person should do nothing or use nothing that isn't canon. So you can speculate that the genoskwa could do anything but never does anything like that on page before he is killed.
I don't remember Molly as taking on anyone's appearance.
--- Quote ---She's Mab, Harry's a wreck, and he still catches on within five minutes or less.
--- End quote ---
Harry doesn't detect her because he senses Magic, he detects her because she isn't good at being a modern human. The Ladies are closer to the mortal plane than Mab. They live here, not in faerie. In the last short story Molly is raising cohorts form creatures living here. And I missed another creature of Winter that can appear as humans, the ones in Alaska.
--- Quote ---True for Lea, but when did Mab do it?
--- End quote ---
Mab calls Thomas in Cold Days imitating Molly.
Now unrelated to my response to you a word about Rashid in Proven Guilty. Ebeneezer talking to Harry in the round up in chapter 47 says.
--- Quote ---“Rashid,” I said in a firm voice. “Tell the Gatekeeper.”
Ebenezar frowned, though it looked more weary than anything else. “Likely he knows already. Knew already. Maybe even pointed you in a direction that would show you more. Assuming he wasn’t simply using you to poke a hornet’s nest and see what flew up.”
--- End quote ---
My theory is assuming that this statement from Eb is the precise reason behind the events of Proven Guilty.
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