The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
Mr. Death:
I think you can still lay some fault on Harry because Harry's reaction was just, "Don't do it and I'm not going to help you do it safely."
As the whole idea of abstinence-only education has shown, that's a laughably bad way to keep someone from doing something. Harry could have inquired more about why she was interested in it, especially since she did seem determined to look deeper with or without him.
Mira:
Here is the conversation in Fool Moon, paperback page -5 6...
Kim has just asked Harry several questions behind the theory of holding circles and how they work, she has drawn a picture of it. He answers her about the first two rings, then she asks about using a third... He asks her if she copied it right..
Let's back up to the first page... He is speaking of a full moon, then what Kim has shown him..
--- Quote ---So I didn't know that it was one night shy of being full when a young woman sat down across from me in McAnally's pub and asked me to tell her all about something that could get her killed.
"No," I said. "Absolutely not." I folded the piece of paper, with the drawings of three concentric rings of spidery symbols, and slid it back over the polished oak-wood table."
--- End quote ---
He goes on to warn her not to mess with it, even the knowledge is dangerous. Page 2 she totally lies to him...
--- Quote ---"Look, Harry," Kim said, "I'm not using this for anything serious, I promise. I'm not trying any summoning or binding. It's an academic interest only.
--- End quote ---
Page 3 Harry asks her again....
--- Quote ---"You're sure?" I asked her. "This is just you trying to scratch an itch?"
"Cross my heart," she said, doing so...
--- End quote ---
He answers some of her questions and she eagerly takes notes until we get to the third inner circle..
Harry realizes there is something fishy a foot...
pages 5-6
--- Quote ---I studied her face for a moment. "If I read the symbols correctly, it's a third wall. Built to withhold creatures of the flesh and the spirit. Neither mortal nor spirit but somewhere in-between."
"What kind of creatures are like that?"
I shrugged. "None," I said, and officially, it was true. The White Council of wizards did not allow the discussion of demons that could be called to earth, beings of spirit that could gather flesh to themselves. Usually a spirit circle was enough to stop all but the most powerful demons or Elder Things of the outer reaches of the Nevernever. But this third circle was built to stop things that could transcend those kinds of boundaries. It was a cage for demonic demigods and archangels.
--- End quote ---
Harry stops giving her straight answers to her further questions and continues to warn her... She insists that she is strong enough to activate such a circle... He answers page 6
--- Quote ---"You strength's go nothing to do with it." I said. "You don't have the training. You don't have the knowledge
--- End quote ---
He goes on to tell her even if she did, he'd still warn her against it because if she made a mistake, it could hurt a lot of people... Then she gets pissed and stalks off... Then on page 8
Harry adds talking to himself now...
--- Quote ---To say nothing of what the White Council would think of a nonwizard toying with major summoning circles. The White Council didn't take chances with things like that. They just acted, decisively, and they weren't always particular about people's lives and safety when they did it.
--- End quote ---
1] Kim never told Harry the truth..
2] That it was for a Loop never entered his mind, until he talked to Bob Harry had doubts that they
even existed
3] He thought he was helping her keep her head by not giving her anymore information, just knowing it was dangerous...
4] He had no idea that she was going to try and attempt it even without all the information she needed... He really thought she had more sense...
Harry blames himself, but honestly if she wasn't willing to tell him the truth, what else could he have done but what he did do?
Mr Death
--- Quote ---I think you can still lay some fault on Harry because Harry's reaction was just, "Don't do it and I'm not going to help you do it safely."
As the whole idea of abstinence-only education has shown, that's a laughably bad way to keep someone from doing something. Harry could have inquired more about why she was interested in it, especially since she did seem determined to look deeper with or without him.
--- End quote ---
See above, he did question her closely and she blew him off, and out and out lied to him... Consider how different it could have turned out, if she had told him the truth about the Loop and what had happened... If I know our Harry, he would have jumped up without finishing his steak and insisted that he be taken to the subject that so badly needed containing and do the circle himself.. However given those determined that the Loop get out, it still might not have been enough..
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I think you can still lay some fault on Harry because Harry's reaction was just, "Don't do it and I'm not going to help you do it safely."
As the whole idea of abstinence-only education has shown, that's a laughably bad way to keep someone from doing something. Harry could have inquired more about why she was interested in it, especially since she did seem determined to look deeper with or without him.
--- End quote ---
As Mira's quotes from the book show, Harry did inquire--repeatedly--as to why she was interested, and she lied to him. That's not his fault.
It's the equivalent of this:
Person A: Teach me how to pick locks.
Person B: Why do you need to know how to pick locks? It seems like a problematic skill.
Person A: Well, I just thought it would be a cool thing to know.
Person B: Well, here's some of the theory...
Person A: Cool! Now how do I deal with *this specific type of lock*?
Person B: Are you sure you're just interested theoretically? You don't have a particular reason?
Person A: I promise, it's just theoretical. Now, where, theoretically, would I buy lock picks?
Person B: I'm not telling you that! There is no way you need to know that for theoretical reasons.
And then Person A gets mugged because she was locked out of her house all night. That's not Person B's fault.
Mr. Death:
Fair enough, it's been a while since my last reread.
Bad Alias:
As I recall, Harry pressed Kim a bit harder than the quotes make out. Most of the time that Harry blames himself for not giving enough information, the problem is actually that the other person has deceived or lied to Harry and then ignored his warnings of the dangers.
Kim lies and ignores Harry's warning. Susan secretly steals from Harry and ignores his warnings that the party is too dangerous for him. It's like a Navy Seal telling you he won't go on a mission in a certain country because it's too dangerous for him and his team and you going to that country so you can maybe get a promotion at work. I don't even see how telling the Alphas about everything he knows could have helped with Kirby.
The only time Harry holds back information, and it causes problems is Storm Front. If Murphy new why he was so hesitant to do the research, she would have understood why he used the other avenues first. She may have even helped him. It's possible, maybe even more likely than not, that he could have questioned Bianca in the presence, but out of earshot, of Murphy and Carmichael. Bianca and Harry may never have become out and out enemies. Murphy would have understood why he talked to Linda Randall. Now, the future might have been much darker if these things didn't happen, but it certainly caused a lot of problems for Harry and his friends. I think I might start a thread on the consequences of Harry not being straight with Murphy in Storm Front because of how far reaching they are. From that one novel, everything else follows.
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