The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 03, 2019, 09:45:51 PM ---Um, he warned both Kim and Susan as best he could, let's not forget some information Harry isn't at liberty to share... Let's be fair here, did Kim tell Harry why she really wanted the plans? No... When Harry mentioned that such a circle was only used to contain the likes of archangels and demigods, did she say who or what she was trying to contain? NO! Her answer was sheer stupidity about Harry thinking she isn't strong enough to build such a circle.. Even if Harry had given her ALL the information it is doubtful that she could have pulled it off under pressure...
Susan, what more could Harry have told her? All she cared about was getting a story so she blew off Harry's warnings about the party and who was there, hell he didn't want to go it was so dangerous... After witnessing the run in with the Loop, and the Frog Demon in Storm Front you'd think she'd trust Harry's word when he says something is just too dangerous for mere vanilla mortals to come up against... The smart thing would have been to trust his word and use common sense... When someone tells you not to touch the red hot stove, don't touch it or you might get badly burned... She was, and Kim paid with her life.. Both had pretty informed choices to make and they made them, they chose to disregard Harry's warnings. It's like a mine field with signs that say, "DO NOT GO INTO THE MINE FIELD, DANGER!!!!" You know mines can kill, you know they can rip off arms and legs etc.... You've been told by an explosives expert that these are very powerful mines easily triggered and they can reduce you to a red stain in the dirt... But you've never seen this yourself, and though this person is an expert, he has to be over protective, just how dangerous can they really be? You make your informed choice and take a walk in the marked field... You may get lucky and not trip anything, does that make the warnings wrong? Or you step on one and are reduced to red goo... You made an informed choice, what more information could the explosive expert have given you to keep you out of that damn field?
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They don't know about the white council. They don't know that supernaturals has factions as powerful as nations and maybe even more. They don't know that Harry himself is a relatively small fry when the bigger picture is at play. They see the pond but they don't know how deep it is, and Harry is the one who introduce them to the pond.
Mira:
--- Quote ---He should had taken more proactive action. The only excuse Harry has to explain this mistake is youth and inexperience. If it is Morgan, Kim would have been interrogated at sword point.
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About what? Harry wasn't a Warden at that time, and just asking about the ring isn't forbidden.. He asks her again and again why she wants the information, she answers in the hypothetical... When he realizes that she is trying to lead him into forbidden classified information open only to certified wizards only to be used in the most special of cases he shuts down the information.. He has no authority to either hold her or assault her to find out why she wants the information. Up until that point he had no clue that there was a Loop loose upon the world that she was trying to contain... If it is anyone's fault it is Kim's for thinking just because she can ride a bicycle she fly a jet without any training.. It is about her ego her response to Harry's warnings is, you think I am not strong enough to make one. She is pissed because Harry is roughly her age and he is a full wizard where as she isn't even an apprentice... That says to me she thinks she has something to prove, not that she is really concerned about anyone's safety... It's her decision to go back and try to make the circle without all the information she needs, and she gets herself killed.. She also has some idea if not fully aware of what she is trying to contain when Harry warns her about the dangers.. Yet she elects to say nothing to him... She doesn't want any realhelp from him, no, she is out to prove something that was beyond her and it got her killed... There is no proactive against that...
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Now you understand why the white council is so intolerant. You mess with something above your pay grade, and they come down at you like a ton of bricks, your reasons and excuses be damm. And Harry is officially a wizard of the white council.
He should had taken more proactive action. The only excuse Harry has to explain this mistake is youth and inexperience. If it is Morgan, Kim would have been interrogated at sword point.
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What proactive action would you have him take? Remember, he's not a Warden--he has no authority to actually do anything to her.
--- Quote ---I never said anything about guilt. I said Harry was responsible for Kirby dying. This is pure cause and effect.
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1) You said that Harry "owns it." I assumed you meant that Harry feels guilty/responsible for what happened.
2) No, the Skinwalker was responsible for Kirby dying. It was the one who chose to take the job against Harry, to follow Harry, and to kill Kirby. Harry gave it the opportunity to kill Kirby by going to Will's house, but Harry is not responsible for Kirby's death any more than Will is for calling him for help.
--- Quote ---The point is Susan should have known about the supernatural at all. This is all started when Harry advertise himself as a wizard in the yellow pages. He open the Pandora's box right there. There is a reason why the white council looks poorly about Harry in this matter.
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There's no evidence of that. I had always believed that both Susan and Kim found Harry because they already believed in the supernatural.
--- Quote ---It may look innocent at the start, but Harry's advertisement draws amateurs into the the game of supernaturals. All because Harry can't maintain secrecy at the start and fail to fully clued in people when secrecy fails.
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Nope. Susan was already a paranormal reporter when she met Harry, and Kim met the Loup Garou (I forget his name) independently of Harry. None of that is on him.
--- Quote ---They don't know about the white council. They don't know that supernaturals has factions as powerful as nations and maybe even more.
--- End quote ---
And they don't need to to avoid the dangers they get into.
--- Quote ---They don't know that Harry himself is a relatively small fry when the bigger picture is at play.
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In both cases, Harry explicitly warns them that he's not sure he can handle the issue, actually.
--- Quote ---They see the pond but they don't know how deep it is, and Harry is the one who introduce them to the pond.
--- End quote ---
See above regarding: Nope.
--- Quote ---About what? Harry wasn't a Warden at that time, and just asking about the ring isn't forbidden.. He asks her again and again why she wants the information, she answers in the hypothetical... When he realizes that she is trying to lead him into forbidden classified information open only to certified wizards only to be used in the most special of cases he shuts down the information.. He has no authority to either hold her or assault her to find out why she wants the information. Up until that point he had no clue that there was a Loop loose upon the world that she was trying to contain... If it is anyone's fault it is Kim's for thinking just because she can ride a bicycle she fly a jet without any training.. It is about her ego her response to Harry's warnings is, you think I am not strong enough to make one. She is pissed because Harry is roughly her age and he is a full wizard where as she isn't even an apprentice... That says to me she thinks she has something to prove, not that she is really concerned about anyone's safety... It's her decision to go back and try to make the circle without all the information she needs, and she gets herself killed.. She also has some idea if not fully aware of what she is trying to contain when Harry warns her about the dangers.. Yet she elects to say nothing to him... She doesn't want any realhelp from him, no, she is out to prove something that was beyond her and it got her killed... There is no proactive against that...
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This.
Mira:
--- Quote ---They train soldiers so that they pay attention to orders without thinking and practice their responses to the situations that they expect to see in the field. What they try not to do is let inexperienced people into situations that could kill them with out the knowledge they need to stay alive. Run through your mind about the type of things Jim has Harry do to Molly that runs along this vain when he acquires Molly as an apprentice. If he was going to bring Kim or Susan into his realm, he incurred an obligation to give them them that knowledge.
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He didn't bring either one of them into his realm, they volunteered.. He took neither on as an apprentice... Susan was a reporter, in the beginning she wanted to use Harry to get the story...
She worked for a supernatural rag, she wanted to use Harry to gain her own fame... Yeah, she fell in love with him along the road, but don't pretend that she didn't blind herself to the fact that Harry had"danger Will Robinson" written all over him... She chose to ignore it at her own peril...
--- Quote ---The point is Susan should have known about the supernatural at all. This is all started when Harry advertise himself as a wizard in the yellow pages. He open the Pandora's box right there. There is a reason why the white council looks poorly about Harry in this matter. It may look innocent at the start, but Harry's advertisement draws amateurs into the the game of supernaturals. All because Harry can't maintain secrecy at the start and fail to fully clued in people when secrecy fails.
--- End quote ---
The amateurs are in it any way, the young warlocks that lose their heads annually are not Harry's fault.. Victor got there all on his own, not because of some two line ad in the Yellow Pages, he never sought the help from a professional...
--- Quote ---They train soldiers so that they pay attention to orders without thinking and practice their responses to the situations that they expect to see in the field. What they try not to do is let inexperienced people into situations that could kill them with out the knowledge they need to stay alive. Run through your mind about the type of things Jim has Harry do to Molly that runs along this vain when he acquires Molly as an apprentice. If he was going to bring Kim or Susan into his realm, he incurred an obligation to give them them that knowledge.
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Again he never lead either woman.... He warned Kim that she had neither the knowledge nor the training to build that circle... Given the time constraint, full moon in the next day or two, it is doubtful he could have given her either enough knowledge or training to build one if he knew what she really wanted the knowledge for... It isn't reasonable to think he could prepare her when she refused to give him the information about what she was really up to..
What training could he possibly have given Susan to keep her safe at the party? Given her hunger for the story, the more information he could give her about the guests would only fuel her desire more to be there... She stole the fricken invitation, crashed the party, is Harry responsible for that?
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 04, 2019, 03:50:51 AM ---About what? Harry wasn't a Warden at that time, and just asking about the ring isn't forbidden.. He asks her again and again why she wants the information, she answers in the hypothetical... When he realizes that she is trying to lead him into forbidden classified information open only to certified wizards only to be used in the most special of cases he shuts down the information.. He has no authority to either hold her or assault her to find out why she wants the information. Up until that point he had no clue that there was a Loop loose upon the world that she was trying to contain... If it is anyone's fault it is Kim's for thinking just because she can ride a bicycle she fly a jet without any training.. It is about her ego her response to Harry's warnings is, you think I am not strong enough to make one. She is pissed because Harry is roughly her age and he is a full wizard where as she isn't even an apprentice... That says to me she thinks she has something to prove, not that she is really concerned about anyone's safety... It's her decision to go back and try to make the circle without all the information she needs, and she gets herself killed.. She also has some idea if not fully aware of what she is trying to contain when Harry warns her about the dangers.. Yet she elects to say nothing to him... She doesn't want any realhelp from him, no, she is out to prove something that was beyond her and it got her killed... There is no proactive against that...
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He is not a warden, but he is a full fledge member of the white council. At the least, he should have reported to the council that there is suspicious activities in Chicago. Someone is playing with a circle use to capture Archangels, that is a big red alert right there. I am sure if it is book 12 Harry facing similar situations, he'll dig 6 feet into the ground to find out.
Imagine a traffic police officer. Someone ask this officer how to produce narcotics, in deatail and it involve highly technical stuff. The officer recognize the problem and tried to persuade the person, but he did not try to investigate further. He also did not consult with his superior officers about the matter. In the end the officer found out that the person died of drug overdose and it involve a drug cartel too.
What do you think about this traffic officer?
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