The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on June 13, 2019, 10:49:20 PM ---Harry bears a moral responsibility for killing Cassius. Harry makes an extrajudicial decision that Cassius is too dangerous to live. He isn't even a warden at that point. He's a vigilante. And Harry's ethical position is established in canon. Jim has established the mortal authorities lack of ability to contain supernatural threats. In Fool Moon, and Changes, to name two. So you can classify the act as murder, but you have to ignore canon.
Victor Sells could never be convicted of murder because you can't connect him to the act. He wasn't there and to the mortal authorities magic doesn't exist.
Just to be sure, everybody does know that dogs can't be given a kill command? Right? Only Foo dogs of exceptional intelligence need apply.
--- End quote ---
Dogs can be given a kill command, it is an "attack" command... Mostly they are trained to go after the limbs and subdue until called off, but make no mistake a Mal or a German Shepherd can rip out someone's throat in seconds.
Why do you ignore that fact that with help Cassius had ambushed Harry? Then he tied him up with magical bonds and proceeded to carve him up with a knife desperate to get the coin he thought Harry carried? And he was also about to kill Harry? Harry knew it and actually prayed for a Holy Knight to come on scene to save him.. This is when Butters and Mouse showed up and saved him.. It wasn't cold blooded anything... Except maybe on the part of Cassius, he was cold bloodily carving up Harry, until Butters and Mouse came on the scene and subdued him..
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 14, 2019, 01:25:00 PM --- ... Why do you ignore that fact that with help Cassius had ambushed Harry? Then he tied him up with magical bonds and proceeded to carve him up with a knife desperate to get the coin he thought Harry carried? And he was also about to kill Harry? Harry knew it and actually prayed for a Holy Knight to come on scene to save him..
--- End quote ---
Not ignoring these!
Horrible crimes; torture, attempted murder, etc. Not even any of the ambiguity we're arguing about in Harry's case -- both the laws of the White Council, and the laws of Illinois, hold Cassius as criminal in these actions. (although as far as I understand it, not the Unseelie Accords -- Mab doesn't object to personal animosity even leading up to murder).
So, yeah -- Cassius was an awful person, and was doing awful things there. No argument.
--- Quote from: Mira on June 14, 2019, 01:25:00 PM --- This is when Butters and Mouse showed up and saved him.. It wasn't cold blooded anything... Except maybe on the part of Cassius, he was cold bloodily carving up Harry, until Butters and Mouse came on the scene and subdued him..
--- End quote ---
Yeah, this is a key point: Cassius had been subdued. He was not in a position to continue his assault on Harry, he was not a threat in that moment when Harry ordered Mouse to kill him.
Killing somebody who is not a threat in the moment? That looks... an awful lot like murder. Even if the person "deserved" it.
A couple of key counter-questions:
- was Harry entitled to kill him anyway? Under WC law, yes he was: Luccio had Warden'ed him shortly before, so Harry's Grey Cloak entitled him to execute sorcerors, necromancers, and their allies, particularly with the Darkhallow ritual having begun.
- would Cassius have renewed murderous violence, and how soon? Preponderance of the evidence suggests that Cassius would indeed have renewed his violence, and done so as soon as he saw advantage; possibly as soon as Mouse was off him.
I would argue that, Harry being "cold-blooded" or not, Cassius was an immediate threat -- only momentarily neutralized, in a highly-unstable situation -- and the killing was in fact self-defense.
Nevertheless, the argument that Harry "committed murder" does have some merit, particularly if you ONLY consider it from the POV of local/mortal law. "But he started it!" isn't a defense, since Cassius (as noted) had been subdued, and was not a threat in the moment. AFAIK, mortal law has no coverage for the "cannot safely take the subdued perp to jail, must execute on the spot" situation.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 14, 2019, 01:25:00 PM --- Dogs can be given a kill command, it is an "attack" command... Mostly they are trained to go after the limbs and subdue until called off, but make no mistake a Mal or a German Shepherd can rip out someone's throat in seconds.
--- End quote ---
Oh HELL yeah. Unless a dog has been specifically trained to ONLY go after the limbs, to subdue... almost any adult dog over 30 lbs or so can (potentially) become a lethal threat.
And the traditional "police" dogs - malinois, alsatian, etc -- aren't even the most dangerous breeds. Some dogs have been bred for WAR, for actual battlefields, facing armed/armored soldiers; or for gladitorial arenas; or for hunting other large predators.
The Great Dane's ancestors fought the Roman Legions in Germany, and impressed them enough to be imported back to Rome for exhibition fights in the colliseum.
The jaguar was a specific motivator for breeding the Dogo Argentino. Do YOU wanna go "mano a dogo" vs. a jaguar-killer? Yeah, me neither!
Rhodeisian Ridgeback was bred for African game... including lions.
Off in Japan, the Akita was the war-dog of choice.
The Caucasian Sheperd / Ovcharka is a massive guard dog.
The Anatolian too, though leaner.
Both are ancestral to various military/security uses.
And no DF thread that mentions dogs should ignore the Tibetan Mastiff -- the closest RL breed to our own Mouse!
Mira:
--- Quote ---Oh HELL yeah. Unless a dog has been specifically trained to ONLY go after the limbs, to subdue... almost any adult dog over 30 lbs or so can (potentially) become a lethal threat.
--- End quote ---
Oh yeah, even when someone supposedly knows what they are doing. A dog handler I know, worked two Mals, she had raised them from pups, thought she knew them very well... One day she got between them, whether they were fighting or just playing hard is unclear, but one turned on her and ripped her bicep off before you can say rip your bicep off, she is lucky, if the dog had jumped just a few inches higher and to the right, she wouldn't be alive to tell the tale..
morriswalters:
For the record Mouse wasn't trained as an attack dog. Not in the text. Mouse is smart. He can read and understand English.
--- Quote ---Significant dog bites affect tens of millions of people globally each year.[3] It is estimated that 2% of the U.S. population, 4.5–4.7 million people, are bitten by dogs each year.[4] Most bites occur in children.[5] In the 1980s and 1990s, the U.S. averaged 17 fatalities per year, while in the 2000s this has increased to 26.[6] 77% of dog bites are from the pet of family or friends, and 50% of attacks occur on the dog owner's property.[6] Animal bites, most of which are from dogs, are the reason for 1% of visits to an emergency department in the United States.[5]
--- End quote ---
There would probably be fewer fatalities and bites if people like your dog handler friend remembered that dogs are animals. Your friend would benefit from reading this.
--- Quote ---Human activities may increase the risk of a dog bite as does age, height, and movement. The CDC and the American Veterinary Medical Association have published recommendations which encourage those that are around dogs to: not attempt to break up a dog fight[27]
--- End quote ---
I am sensitive to this subject currently since I have two great grandchildren under 18 months whose parents don't really understand dogs. My wife was bitten because she ignored the first rule. Do not approach strange dogs. Carry on.
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