The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

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forumghost:
I mean if you want to use Gun safety as an analogy, then Harry was absolutely cooperative, when Kim was asking things like "How does gunpowder work?" or "What does the hammer do?" But when Kim asked him "Btw, hypothetically, how would I switch off the safety?" At which point he said (fairly reasonably) "Yeah no, I'm not telling you that, you don't know how not to shoot yourself."

Then Kim went out, bought a gun, and shot herself.

All Harry told her was 'this is what each part of the Circle is for'. Given that she'd obviously copied it from Macfinn's place, she knew that (at least generally). Nothing that Harry told her that day would have aided her in using it (which is why he feels guilty- because 'maybe if I'd told her how to perform this advanced brain-surgery procedure she'd have done it right, despite her being a year-one Med student').

TLDR: Kim killed herself because of her own Ego and her refusal to talk to Harry about what she was doing properly, despite it being obviously beyond her experience. Harry blames himself because he has a guilt complex, in particular with regards to women being hurt (Thanks Elaine)

123Chikadee:
Mr. Death: Telling someone that the supernatural is dangerous is not the same as telling them how it's dangerous.

Which is why I think Harry could do a bit more to impress on people how dangerous the supernatural is. I do agree that  each of these scenarios are not clear cut, but I do think Harry could stand to be more open, but he's being a product of his wizard environment with secret keeping-

Hm, you know something just occurred to me. Harry had deep down still thought the White Council was right to keep secrets, even as he was trying to rebel by being an openly practicing wizard.  This could be why his attempts to both shield and inform his friends end so badly. Its less that I think that Harry is at fault in a actions-consequences type of way. More in an attitude way.

Though I think I'll handle the Susan  one first. Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most is the fact that it's a text book example of the 'Idiot Plot'. In order for the war to get kicked off, Susan has to think that gatecrashing a vampire party is a good idea. It sticks out at me as really contrived and it's easily one of the weakest spots in JB's writing. I kinda understand why she was dismissive of Harry, as he was sexist at the time and that would have effected her. I know that as audience members we get that the supernatural is dangerous but sometimes characters don't know all that they should know.  Though if I'm honest, I never liked Susan anyway.

With the Alphas, It's even more murky than Susan's scenario. The only thing that I think could have helped would have been not to lead the Skinwalker to the Alphas, but where else would he have gone to? I have no idea.  I'm with Bad Alias on why the scenario works from a Doylist angle and I do think the Alphas could have done better to defend themselves since they were so ill-prepared to handle it. They didn't take into account Harry's state when he got there and they should have. Unfortunately, Harry did have some contributions to that by treating the Alphas like kids. Even if the Alphas wouldn't be able to do anything against a Skinwalker, but hey at least it could help somehow.

As for Kim, yeah I think Harry could have down more. I think huangjimmy108 made a really good point about comparing a traffic police officer to Harry. I hadn't ever thought of it that way and that's a pretty helpful way of putting it, since this one Harry is a bit more culpable in the sense that Harry could have done more. Barring all that, I do think that Harry takes too much on himself.

I think that might be it for me. I'm not too sure what else I can say, but anyone is welcome to respond. :)

morriswalters:

--- Quote from: forumghost on June 07, 2019, 11:21:49 PM ---I mean if you want to use Gun safety as an analogy, then Harry was absolutely cooperative, when Kim was asking things like "How does gunpowder work?" or "What does the hammer do?" But when Kim asked him "Btw, hypothetically, how would I switch off the safety?" At which point he said (fairly reasonably) "Yeah no, I'm not telling you that, you don't know how not to shoot yourself."

Then Kim went out, bought a gun, and shot herself.

All Harry told her was 'this is what each part of the Circle is for'. Given that she'd obviously copied it from Macfinn's place, she knew that (at least generally). Nothing that Harry told her that day would have aided her in using it (which is why he feels guilty- because 'maybe if I'd told her how to perform this advanced brain-surgery procedure she'd have done it right, despite her being a year-one Med student').

TLDR: Kim killed herself because of her own Ego and her refusal to talk to Harry about what she was doing properly, despite it being obviously beyond her experience. Harry blames himself because he has a guilt complex, in particular with regards to women being hurt (Thanks Elaine)

--- End quote ---
What I asked was what Moral obligation did Harry incur for someone he had chosen to help learn about magic?  I gather from the answers to this point the answer is he incurred no obligation at all. So that pretty much is that.

In terms of what she knew about the circles?  Going in she knew nothing more then what the circle as a whole did.  Going out she knew what each individual ring did.  In my argument it doesn't really matter.  You have to assume that when Harry started to teach her she didn't know Jack.  Had he not chosen to bring her into supernatural society she would have been just another stranger on the street and the circle would have been just another pretty picture.

Bad Alias:
If you have guns and kids (really, other people in general regardless of age) in the same house, you should teach them gun safety. What constitutes gun safety varies depending on the age, but most kids who can talk in complete sentences can learn the rules of gun safety. You should also keep your guns secure. Even the best kids are disobedient little whatsits at times.

There are two common formulations of the basic rules of gun safety. The NRA's three rules (with additional rules), https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org/, and "the Four Rules of Gun Safety" that I believe are attributed to Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, https://www.hunter-ed.com/gun-safety/.

@123Chickadee: For the record, I'm not a big fan of Doylist interpretation because I think the text should make sense regardless of what the author is trying to do. I think this is why I've always hated Hollywood's moralizing but am fine with things like Aesop's fables. Aesop was competent at teaching a lesson in an obvious, but not clumsy, way. Hollywood fails more often than not.

@Morris: Harry does incur some moral obligations in being able to teach someone about magic before he even makes a decision. In this world, if he doesn't teach them anything, they are likely to try the "Jedi mind trick" and then it's too late. So, I think his minimal moral obligation is to say "these are the rules; if you break them, scary people will come and kill you." If he does anymore than that, it gets complicated fast. Magic is dangerous. He first has to teach the student how to not accidentally cause harm. Then he has to teach them a bunch of other stuff, all the while teaching them either obedience or trust, preferably, both. That's where he failed with Kim. She was neither obedient nor trustful towards Harry. Magic is "serious business." When you're teaching "serious business" to someone, there needs to be a relationship of trust and obedience. That's why it's a master and apprentice relationship. And when that relationship doesn't exist, and both parties are adults, then the fault isn't necessarily on the teacher.

Harry basically says "this is dangerous, do not do it." Kim neither trusted nor obeyed. We don't know enough about their relationship to say who has what proportion of blame, but Kim did come to him. That alone is an admission that Harry knows more than her. But this isn't a failure of withholding information. It's a failure of giving too much information before establishing the ground rules, if anything.

To get back to the guns analogy, it's kind of like teaching you the gun safety rules, the mechanics of shooting, and stopping at that. Just about no one seems capable of keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at first on a range. I have to stay on top of them and watch everything they do. Providing information isn't enough. Maybe providing more information would have worked for Kim, but Harry shouldn't have given her anymore information. It's a summoning circle. If it's primary purpose was binding things already here, it would be called a binding circle. As she is clearly lying about her intentions, Harry shouldn't help her because she's probably trying to summon some terrible being. He should probably have contacted Morgan about it, but obviously never would have because of Morgan's behavior (an example of bad police work, there).

KurtinStGeorge:
I'm late to this discussion, so if someone has already mentioned this incident, I apologize, but it seems to me there is one time when Harry withholding information has led to someone getting hurt and it's in Storm Front and it's not Linda Randall.


--- Quote ---"Don't make me choose, Harry." Her voice softened, if not her eyes or her face. "Please."

I thought about it. I could bring everything to her. That's what she was asking - not half the story, not part of the information. She wanted it all. She wanted all the pieces in front of her so she could puzzle them together and bring the bad guys in. She didn't want to work the puzzle knowing that I was keeping some of the pieces in my pocket.

What could it hurt? Linda Randall had called me earlier that evening. She had planned on coming to me, to talk to me. She was going to give me some information and someone had shut her up before she could.

I saw two problems with telling Murphy that. One, she would start thinking like a cop. It would not be hard to find out that Linda wasn't exactly a high-fidelity piece of equipment. That she had numerous lovers on both sides of the fence. What if she and I were closer than I was admitting? What if I'd used magic to kill her lovers in a fit of jealous rage and then waited for another storm to kill her, too? It sounded plausible, workable, a crime of passion - Murphy had to know that the DA would have a hell of a time proving magic as a murder weapon, but if it had been a gun instead, it would have flown.

The second problem, and the one that worried me a lot more, was that there were already three people dead. And if I hadn't gotten lucky and creative, there would have been two more dead people, back at my apartment. I still didn't know who the bad guy was. Telling Murphy what little more I knew wouldn't give her any helpful information. It would only make her ask more questions, and she wanted answers.

If the voice in the shadows knew that Murphy was heading the investigation to find him, and was on the right track, he would have no qualms about killing her, too. And there was nothing she could do to protect herself against it. She might have been formidable to your average criminal, but all the aikido in the world wouldn't do her any good against a demon.

Then, too, there was the White Council. Men like Morgan and his superiors, secure in their own power, arrogant and considering themselves above the authority of any laws but their own, wouldn't hesitate to remove one police lieutenant who had discovered the secret world of the White Council.

I looked at the bloodstained sheets and thought of Linda's corpse. I thought of Murphy's office, and what it would look like with her sprawled on the floor, her heart torn from her chest, or her throat torn out by some creeping thing from beyond.

"Sorry, Murph," I said. My voice came out in a rasping whisper. "I wish I could help you. I don't know anything useful." I didn't try to look up at her, and I didn't try to hide that I was lying.
--- End quote ---

So Harry trying to protect Murphy led to her treating him as a suspect.  It led to Murphy searching Harry's office because she didn't have the information she needed and I'm certain you will all remember, it led to Murphy getting stung by Victor Sells ever growing scorpion construct or demon.  (Whatever it was.)

Now it could be argued that Murphy sometimes makes questionable to bad decisions, but I see that more in Fool Moon than in Storm Front.  Murphy's view of supernatural world in Storm Front is like someone looking through a keyhole rather than a nice large window and Harry tries to keep it that way; and though Harry does it mostly to protect Murphy, it backfires instead.

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