The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on June 07, 2019, 12:35:48 AM ---[1.] In the book the only one who gets close is Listens To Wind. ... [2.] I think we are in the same Church, but in different pews.
--- End quote ---
1. I'd say Harry got close on the island. 2. That's clever. I like it and will steal it at the first opportunity.
morriswalters:
What would your moral ground be like if you left a gun out where a child could get it, with no more protection for the child then your assertion to the child that the gun was dangerous and they should leave it be? If you hesitate before you answer, don't have kids. They have no agency, they can't be responsible. Children die every year because parents fail to understand this.
You will probably not agree with me when I assert that Kim had no agency in this matter. She simply wasn't experienced enough with magic to gauge her capabilities. This will arise again when he takes on Molly as an apprentice. In Turn Coat Molly will attempt to use mind magic on Luccio. And it is only because Morgan chooses to take that knowledge to the grave that Molly and Harry don't lose their heads. And Molly knew she was under the Doom of Damocles. In other words Harry and the Council put the gun on the table and told her not to touch it.
Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this. Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless. But she was evidently unable to correctly judge her level of knowledge. This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance. Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic. He failed in the obligation he assumed. As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 07, 2019, 05:55:31 PM ---1. I'd say Harry got close on the island. 2. That's clever. I like it and will steal it at the first opportunity.
--- End quote ---
Feel free, I stole it from someone else.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this. Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless. But she was evidently unable to correctly judge her level of knowledge. This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance. Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic. He failed in the obligation he assumed. As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.
--- End quote ---
Except you are asking too much.... You are omitting Kim's failure to be honest with Harry as to why she wanted to know how to make this circle.. Kim is young, but she was an adult, not a child.. One of the things that pissed her off is Harry was close to her age and he knew how make it and she didn't..
--- Quote ---What would your moral ground be like if you left a gun out where a child could get it, with no more protection for the child then your assertion to the child that the gun was dangerous and they should leave it be? If you hesitate before you answer, don't have kids. They have no agency, they can't be responsible. Children die every year because parents fail to understand this.
--- End quote ---
Poor analogy... As a parent you keep the guns locked up, however if your child should ask how a gun works, you answer as best you can, also conveying that they can kill, with the assumption that your child isn't going to get his or her hands on a gun, at least not in your house.... You cannot be responsible for what the other parents do in their houses... So if you kid goes to his friends house thinking he knows how to shoot a gun that was left out just because you answered his questions.. Does that make you responsible? Or the the parents of his friend? Or might your kid have grabbed and shot the gun anyway even if you had refused to tell him anything about how a gun worked.... Or possible, because you gave some information adding how dangerous they were, your kid doesn't touch it, but the other kid does and he still dies...
--- Quote ---You will probably not agree with me when I assert that Kim had no agency in this matter. She simply wasn't experienced enough with magic to gauge her capabilities. This will arise again when he takes on Molly as an apprentice. In Turn Coat Molly will attempt to use mind magic on Luccio. And it is only because Morgan chooses to take that knowledge to the grave that Molly and Harry don't lose their heads. And Molly knew she was under the Doom of Damocles. In other words Harry and the Council put the gun on the table and told her not to touch it.
--- End quote ---
Doesn't work, Molly knows perfectly well what she is capable of, that is why she does the mind magic on Luccio. Her motives might have been good, but she was well aware that she was breaking one of the Seven Laws by doing so... She simply chose to disregard them..
--- Quote ---Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this. Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless. But she was evidently unable to correctly judge her level of knowledge. This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance. Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic. He failed in the obligation he assumed. As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.
--- End quote ---
I disagree, she knew perfectly well what she was doing... That is why she repeatedly lied to Harry about what she wanted the information for. She may have misjudged her capabilities, but she wasn't innocently asking Harry academic questions for the sake of knowledge... She was using him trying to trick him into passing on restricted knowledge to her. Actually the irresponsible thing for him to do would be to give her the whole how to.. She wasn't even an apprentice and a little knowledge is dangerous, especially is she got tempted by the dark...
kbrizzle:
@morriswalters
I think that one of the central themes of the series, a leitmotif even, is agency & free will. Kim freely made a decision to do something that her ‘teacher’ disagreed with - she is an adult & nearly Harry’s age, so I don’t agree at all that she has no agency.... I mean isn’t it Kim’s fault for doing this?? Clearly she was going to do it regardless of what Harry said, so I don’t see why Harry gets the blame for her death.
She freely made the choice to perform the ritual binding circle, even when Harry tells her she isn’t up to it. Your argument is that Harry should’ve somehow known that Kim was going to defy him with disastrous consequences & that he should interfere with a freely made decision by another who doesn’t really want his help beyond a few “theoretical” questions.
If your answer is that yes he should’ve abrogated her free will because he feels like she is in danger - note how Murphy responds every time he does this - it is her decision to be involved & not Harry’s. Harry also keeps a fair amount of secrets from Murphy, especially in the early books.
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---Kim freely made a decision to do something that her ‘teacher’ disagreed with - she is an adult & nearly Harry’s age, so I don’t agree at all that she has no agency.... I mean isn’t it Kim’s fault for doing this??
--- End quote ---
I'm not assessing fault. Were I, in the story, it would be the FBI agents. What I keep suggesting is that Harry bears a moral responsibility for what happens. He chose to teach Kim some things about magic. Nobody made him. We are told that magic is dangerous. Had he not taught Kim anything about magic she couldn't have done anything. And had he said nothing about the diagram on the paper, she couldn't have tried to use it.
It's possible in the course of this discussion that I have moved the goalposts to some degree or another. If I have then I offer everyone an apology. I don't think so but this has drug on long enough that I'm losing the thread.
--- Quote ---Your argument is that Harry should’ve somehow known that Kim was going to defy him with disastrous consequences & that he should interfere with a freely made decision by another who doesn’t really want his help beyond a few “theoretical” questions.
--- End quote ---
I'll make a stronger statement, the text tells you he doesn't believe her.
--- Quote ---“And you wouldn’t need it if you weren’t planning on trying to stick a tiger in there.”
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---If your answer is that yes he should’ve abrogated her free will because he feels like she is in danger - note how Murphy responds every time he does this - it is her decision to be involved & not Harry’s. Harry also keeps a fair amount of secrets from Murphy, especially in the early books.
--- End quote ---
Not telling her what the diagram represents, is not abrogating her free will.
@Mira
I know Kim was lying. My great grandchild would have known Kim was lying. And Harry pretty much knew but he was evidently starving.
I didn't offer an analogy, I offered a hypothetical regarding morals and ethics. If you intend to keep guns you should teach your kids and you should safe your guns. Any failure to do so could get you locked up if your child kills themselves or someone else. Which happens all to frequently.
Molly knows better but she does so anyway. So if a threat of a death penalty and Harry's constant carping doesn't stop her why would anything stop Kim, who compared to Molly is a kindergartner?
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