The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
morriswalters:
@Mira
I made that comparison to show that in a fight that Harry and the werewolves were outmatched. There was no defense possible. In the book the only one who gets close is Listens To Wind.
--- Quote from: Bad Alias ---Okay, I see what you're saying and agree with your conclusion about Harry wrongly denying them informed consent. It's a little trickier than "informed consent" because I think, in the DF, people are incapable of making an informed decision about gaining knowledge.
--- End quote ---
The devil is in the details, but I think we are in the same Church, but in different pews.
kbrizzle:
Saying that Harry is responsible for the death of Kirby is a bit like saying he is also responsible for HWWB killing the gas station attendant when Harry was 16....
I agree with @nadia, Mira & Bad Alias - Harry’s lack of sharing knowledge has not yet been the sole reason anyone dies in the series so far. In each of the deaths, there is definitely more culpability from the victims (less so in Kirby’s case granted) or the perpetrators. If anything, Harry’s withholding info is a smaller piece of the mosiac that explains the deaths of the 3 people being discussed, but it is in no way the sole or most important piece.
That Harry feels it is does not make it so - as has been pointed out by Michael, Harry (like the WC) is sometimes arrogant to the point of idiocy. Just because Harry could have theoretically prevented something (with 20/20 hindsight), he feels like he should have done so & blames himself for not doing it. This is not rational....
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: kbrizzle on June 07, 2019, 02:39:29 AM ---Saying that Harry is responsible for the death of Kirby is a bit like saying he is also responsible for HWWB killing the gas station attendant when Harry was 16....
I agree with @nadia, Mira & Bad Alias - Harry’s lack of sharing knowledge has not yet been the sole reason anyone dies in the series so far. In each of the deaths, there is definitely more culpability from the victims (less so in Kirby’s case granted) or the perpetrators. If anything, Harry’s withholding info is a smaller piece of the mosiac that explains the deaths of the 3 people being discussed, but it is in no way the sole or most important piece.
That Harry feels it is does not make it so - as has been pointed out by Michael, Harry (like the WC) is sometimes arrogant to the point of idiocy. Just because Harry could have theoretically prevented something (with 20/20 hindsight), he feels like he should have done so & blames himself for not doing it. This is not rational....
--- End quote ---
I don't think that at any point in this exchange that I said anything about Harry's feelings one way or the other. Your first statement is comparing apples and oranges. Harry has no secrets to keep at that point. And in the books there are multiple layers of responsibility for everything that happens. In this case the primary culprit is the skinwalker.
In terms of Kim Delaney. In some of the tritest dialog in the books Harry worries about the obligation of the cost of the meal.
--- Quote ---The bottom line was I was strapped for cash. I’d been eating ramen noodles and soup for too many weeks. The steaks Mac had prepared smelled like heaven, even from across the room. My belly protested again, growling its neolithic craving for charred meat.
But I couldn’t just go and eat the dinner without giving Kim the information she wanted. It’s not that I’ve never welshed on a deal, but I’ve never done it with anyone human—and definitely not with someone who looked up to me.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---“Save it,” I told her. “You’re sitting on a tiger cage, Kim.” I thumped a finger on the paper for emphasis. “And you wouldn’t need it if you weren’t planning on trying to stick a tiger in there.”
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---I had done the right thing—even if she had trusted me to provide answers for her, as I had in the past, when teaching her to contain and control her modest magical talents. Even if she had trusted me to show her the answers she needed, to be her guide through the darkness.
I’d done the right thing.
Dammit.
My stomach was soured. I didn’t want any more of Mac’s delicious meal, steak or no steak. I didn’t feel like I’d earned it.
--- End quote ---
Obviously he doesn't really think he's done the right thing. So he knows she will attempt it. Obviously she has some idea about how to empower the circle since he has been working with her. Major f****p.
--- Quote ---And I abruptly understood Kim Delaney’s request. She had to have known Harley MacFinn, maybe through her environmental activism. She must have learned of his curse, and wanted to help him. When I had refused to help her, she had attempted to re-create the greater summoning circle upstairs in the bedroom, to hold in MacFinn once the moon rose. As I had warned her would happen, she had failed. She hadn’t had the knowledge necessary to understand how such a construct would function, and consequently, she hadn’t been able to make it work.
MacFinn had killed her. Kim was dead because I had refused to share my knowledge with her, because I hadn’t given her my help. I had been so secure in my knowledge and wisdom; withholding such secrets from her had been the action of a concerned and reasoned adult speaking to an overeager child. I couldn’t believe my own arrogance, the utter confidence with which I had condemned her to death.
--- End quote ---
So he had misgivings at Mac's and surprise, surprise, she dies. So McFinn killed her, because the FBI agents destroyed his circle, because she made a bad choice, because she knew just enough to get her killed, and Harry could have said show me your problem and if I can I will help. Break any of those links in the chain and Kim doesn't die. Harry was the last man standing who could have changed the outcome once the events were moving. Harry's moral failure is in assuming responsibility for helping her, and then not doing so.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Quote
And I abruptly understood Kim Delaney’s request. She had to have known Harley MacFinn, maybe through her environmental activism. She must have learned of his curse, and wanted to help him. When I had refused to help her, she had attempted to re-create the greater summoning circle upstairs in the bedroom, to hold in MacFinn once the moon rose. As I had warned her would happen, she had failed. She hadn’t had the knowledge necessary to understand how such a construct would function, and consequently, she hadn’t been able to make it work.
MacFinn had killed her. Kim was dead because I had refused to share my knowledge with her, because I hadn’t given her my help. I had been so secure in my knowledge and wisdom; withholding such secrets from her had been the action of a concerned and reasoned adult speaking to an overeager child. I couldn’t believe my own arrogance, the utter confidence with which I had condemned her to death.
So he had misgivings at Mac's and surprise, surprise, she dies. So McFinn killed her, because the FBI agents destroyed his circle, because she made a bad choice, because she knew just enough to get her killed, and Harry could have said show me your problem and if I can I will help. Break any of those links in the chain and Kim doesn't die. Harry was the last man standing who could have changed the outcome once the events were moving. Harry's moral failure is in assuming responsibility for helping her, and then not doing so.
--- End quote ---
No, Kim is dead because MacFinn killed her... Kim is dead because she thought she could handle something that was way above her pay grade... She is dead because she didn't trust Harry enough to tell him the truth about why she wanted the knowledge in the first place. Harry did help her, he began to answer her questions as an academic exercise... That is what she said she wanted... He asks her again and again, same answer..... Kim is dead because she withheld knowledge from Harry. Do you think for on moment he wouldn't have helped her if she actually told him why she needed the circle? The answer is no, he would have helped her in a heart beat and maybe have died beside her..
Harry feels responsible because he gave her some knowledge but not all... However as he told her, she didn't have the training to pull it off... I can give you a book on how to fly a jet, but it takes a lot more than a how to book to actually do it.. So even if he gave all the information to her, most likely she still would have failed, if for no other reason she'b be trying to construct is under all kinds of pressure.. Harry beats himself up because of his arrogance thinking because he refused to give her forbidden knowledge she died... Yeah, it is arrogant thinking it was his fault.. It isn't, it was Kim's arrogance in not telling Harry the truth, very much like the same mistake Susan made, in spite the warnings from Harry she believes she can pull it off as easily as he, a full wizard could... After all how hard can it be? How dangerous can a Loop really be? MacFinn was herclient, she wasn't going to share either the fee nor the fame with Harry, so she withheld knowledge because she didn't want him butting in... She refused to listen when Harry brought up training.. Training isn't the same as knowledge, it is about muscle memory and a lot of other things, she didn't have it to pull off such a thing as Harry had told her... Her response was childish,"you think I don't have the juice..." because how hard can it be??
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on June 07, 2019, 12:35:48 AM ---@Mira
I made that comparison to show that in a fight that Harry and the werewolves were outmatched. There was no defense possible. In the book the only one who gets close is Listens To Wind. The devil is in the details, but I think we are in the same Church, but in different pews.
--- End quote ---
Again, at the point when Kirby died, Harry had no clue what they were up against.... However by Will's own logic, that he is responsible for the safety of his pack, it is all his fault that Kirby died... Will knew what it had done to Harry and more to the point he also knew that at that moment Harry couldn't or wouldn't give him more information about what was after him.... Will still called in his pack to face unknown danger. End of story.. No, if there is responsibility to taken, it is on Will..
He isn't wrong about informed consent, that he is responsible for his people and they have to know what they are up against before they go in... It is hard to say whether or not Kirby would have lived had they known and chose to still go in.. As you say a skinwalker was beyond all of them in the first place... However at that moment, none of them knew what it was, not Harry, not anyone.. Yet, Will called his team in and they elected to back Harry and fight.. Given his own sound logic, when Will told Harry that Kirby might have lived had they known more, Will was blaming himself, not Harry. Because it was Will's decision to send his team in blind..
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version